Removing rusty old nipple?

Smokepole

Smokepole

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I'm looking for good ideas to get an old nipple out of an antique shotgun with a pattent breech. I've been soaking it in penatrating oil and I think I will need to use an easy out tool, as the flats are small.
Anyone have some hints?
 
Old rusted in nipples can be really challenging to remove. Assuming that the flats are in good enough condition to use, do you have a wrench that fits them properly? A bit of judiciously applied heat can help. I've never had much luck with easy outs for this sort of thing. Last one I removed had a snapped off easy out stuck in the broken off nipple. Previous owner had abandonned the job at that point. Drilling and then splitting the stump and removing it in bits can be a drastic last option.
Does the nipple really have to come out?
 
Yeah... it's gonna have to come out, as it's broken off. The flats aren't too bad, but they seem to be a smaller size than the standard 1/4". Good news is the base is square, giving me two sets of flats to work with instead of just one.
I'm just starting a restoration on a single barreled percussion 'fowler' and I know the old nipple will be one of the challenges.
The stock is sound and the barrel survived some heavy test loads, so I have a fairly decent piece to work with.
 
I don't have the experience that Tiriaq has but...I would use a generous amount of "Kroil" both outside and and inside...block the nipple and pour 2 ounces down the barrel and let stand. Next is heat applied to the bolster and then working the nipple with a close fitting wrench both in and out until it moves and then more Kroil and heat. Worked for my P39 Enfield. Dave
 
The approach Dantforth described is well worth trying. I like Kroil. The wrench needs to fit the flats well, even if one has to be made that does. If the wrench doesn't fit, then the flats will be distorted and impossible to grab. One reason I am not big on easy outs is that they are tapered. Tap one in, and it tends to expand the shank of the nipple. If necessary to drill, carbide drills should cut the steel in nipples. They need to be used in a drill press, they are brittle. You don't want a carbide drill broken off in the nipple. To remove the broken off easy out in the nipple I described, I used diamond burrs in a drill press. Once the nipple was drilled, I broke the nipple shank into pieces, and removed them with little cold chisels. Cleaned up the threads with a tap, and the cylinder was ready to go.
 
getting rid of old rusty nipples is a job best left to your lawyer, oh sure it will cost plenty but the lack of nagging around the house will be worth it.
 
I would heat around the nipple, then quench it in cold water.You will be amazed at the results. In 36 years millwrighting that worked every time.

Any time you have to drill something threaded out, use a left hand drill bit, quite often the part will come out stuck to the drill.
Cheers Bob.
 
I am guessing that I remove at least 10 nipples a year from project guns that I seem to accumulate. Virtually every one requires a fair bit of heat. I use a welding tip on an oxy propane torch and heat the nipple then spray with a light penetrating oil and try unscrewing with vice grips since the flats are usually buggered. It usually takes several tries and about 1/2 the time, the breach plug has to be heated close to red hot and the nipple removed while hot.
About 1/2 the time the nipple socket threads need to be chased out a bit with a home made larger tap.

I would also mention that if my memory is correct, your gun is british and the nipple threads are probably 1/4 x 26 tpi not 28 tpi. You should also expect to have to custom make the nipple because there is a good chance the diameter of the threads is not standard. About 1 gun in 10 or 20 will have the threads already chased out apparently because they were stripped or rusted out in days gone by. The W&C Scott I am currently playing with, has the left nipple thread about .015" larger than the right side, for example.

cheers mooncoon
 
OK... the nipple is out! Thanks guys!
The threads in the breech are in very poor shape. Looks like they are rusted and probably cross threaded in the past. I know I can get oversized nipples from TOTW, but where will I find a tap set (oversized?) to clean them out?
Mooncoon; Thanks for the heads up on the posibility of english style threads. This gun I'm working on now is marked Mortimer on the lock, it also has english style hardware, but I'm not sure wich side of the pond it was made. I know Mortimer's were English gunmakers for centuries, but I think they also made locks for export, as well as a the possibility of some of them might have imigrated to the USA and continued their craft in North America. The barrel carries a BPC with lance, scepter and crown style proofmark, so I'm guessing English made.
 
Check the bottom of the barrel for proof marks. If British it will have a crown over a cross shape. Unlikely but if belgian it will be an oval cartouche with ELG* in it. North American is unlikely to have a proof mark but may have the barrel makers name.
Take a piece of hardwood doweling and whittle it a little oversize and screw that in, then out, then mike it for diameter and count the threads with a thread guage. That tells you where to begin.
In my case I make my own crude taps on the lathe and generally go up in steps of .010". I also make my own nipples on the lathe. And no I do not do it commercially :>)
Hopefully you have a friend with a metal lathe who can make the pieces. With the taps, I cut the longitudinal flutes in with a fiber reinforced cutting wheel on a dremel tool and also harden the tap then draw to brown in colour.

cheers mooncoon
 
turning your own nipples on a lathe . Cool never thought of that one . I should have thought of that a couple years ago when there didn't seem to be a percusion nipple in town and Ihad lost my spare.
 
Most early nipples that I have seen had a small hole on the outside (next the cap) and a large hole in the threaded area or closest to the powder. The few times I used them, I often failed to get ignition because there was only a tiny hole for the flash to enter. Modern nipples have a large hole closest to the cap and that funnels the flash down the channel.
I have also seen quite a few old nipples which had a large hole all the way through but I am convinced that was a result of gas ersosion.
If the nipple hole is large all the way through, you get too much pressure back on the hammer and quite often it will blow the hammer back to half #### as well as spraying an unacceptable amount of gas back towards the shooter

cheers mooncoon
 
The differences are on the threaded end, closest to the powder charge. One has a large hole that would allow powder to enter the nipple (from the charge) and the other has a tiny hole that would prevent powder from getting into the nipple.
Indeed these are both new nipples. The one with the large hole all the way through 'appears' to be shot out and that is what I would have said if it was found that way on an old gun, but it is made like that.
 
There is a proper nipple size for this musket/rifle. I would never change the thread size. On the last couple I did I just used a stiff bronze brush on my drill and ran it in and out a few times with some "Blue Wonder" and the threads cleaned up. Keep it all original if you can. Original sized nipples are available in British sizes as well as our common sizes. I might try a proper sized tap in to clean any corrosion out of the threads but no more than that. Dave
 
I'm just about to embark on such a nipple removal adventure myself, but the funny thing is (not finishes removing the outside corrosion mind you as I'm being as careful as I can with it) the nipple seems to be built right into the breech plug, it's the darndest thing I can't seem to find the joint in the metal. And of course the nipple part is has snapped off so I'll have to replace it one way or another.
 
The amount of corrosion/erosion seen around the nipples of 19th century guns is often remarkable. I've seen nipples that look as if they grew there. By the same token, I've seen nipples on some pistols that are either part of the breech, or are semi-permanent installations.
Rob, it sounds as if you are going to have to start drilling. Just keep gradually enlarging the hole. Hopefully you will find threads before they are cut away.
Dantforth has a good point. If you are restoring something, it is best to do the absolute minimum necessary, particularly when something like the nipple threads would have been a standard size. If the firearm is not to be fired, less that perfect threads don't really matter.
 
My gun has little collector's value, IMO the value of this piece lies in how well it will shoot and the pleasure one gains from using it. With that said, I did manage to find nipples that screwed right in. Now if I could just clear up this question about the flash channel size. I'm sure I could just try them both and see wich one works best. Just a WAG, but the one with the tiny flash channel would hold much higher breech pressures. The one with the large channel would provide flawless ignition, as the powder charge will fill the nipple and be right under the exploding cap. BTW, my 10ga. has the original nipples still in use, and they are wide open. You can see the FFg in the nipple when you place a cap on it. They could be shot out though. Also, the nipple I removed from the 12ga seems to be the wide open type and close inspection seems to reveal that it was intended to be that way.
 
I've removed old nipples with very large flash channels, one old shotgun would break the hammer because of it .In each case I replaced with a modern nipple and they shot the way they are supposed to.
 
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