Restoring old Winchester Model 94

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Callicles

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Hey everyone. New here, so I hope I'm not beating a dead horse so to speak. I did a quick search around the forum, but didn't find the specific type of information I'm looking for, so I'm hoping some of you can help out.

I am fairly new to shooting and firearm collecting, so I have about a million and five questions. That said, I'll trouble y'all with only one.

I recently acquired a Model 94 Winchester lever action 25-35 from my father. Some searching online tells me the serial number is from the 1908 production year. The rifle has been sitting in my Dad's closet for about 30 years, maybe more. It's showing some discolouration on the receiver and along the outside of the barrel that might be rust but I am not sure. Basically, I am wondering if anyone has links to good resources telling me how to clean up this old rifle (there's always so much shady info online, I'm trying to vet it a little before diving in). I've been eyeing this gun up since I was a wee lad and am eager to shoot it. Should I have particular safety concerns? If I can clean up the rifle (inside and out) is there any reason not to fire it?

Ok, one more (sub) question, related to the first: My father also has old ammo for the rifle that has been sitting in the closet as long as the rifle. If the ammo shows no signs of damage (rust, coming apart, etc), are there concerns with trying to fire it?

Thanks in abundance.

http://s1023.photobucket.com/user/Somerandomname27/library/

I hope that link works.

The picture of the Winchester stamp and trademark is a pretty good example of the what the receiver and barrel look like. The action is a bit gummy, but still moves pretty well (obviously needs a thorough cleaning).

This rifle was my grandfather's deer rifle for many years, but where he got it from I am not sure. Unfortunately, the rest of the history is lost to the ravages of time, but I know where it's been for about the last sixty years.

All of this information is so awesome. Thanks!
 
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If it were mine I would do a basic cleaning and if there are no mechanical issues go shoot it. The ammo should be ok

Edit: please add some pics! I'd like to see this rifle
 
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I don't have a problem with the aged look. I think it is awesome in it's somewhat dated condition (and passed down a couple of generations). I just want to make sure (with a good cleaning) that it should shoot well and that it won't deteriorate any more. I'd like to clean it up, but I'm not going to try to shine it up to a high gloss.
 
Be very, very careful in cleaning it externally.
The discoloration you mention may be patina, the most desired texture on an old collector gun.
I don't want to start a "mine is best," talk of what to use on it, so I will send you a PM of a what I have found to be best.
Bruce
 
Rub it down on the outside with an oily cloth to remove surface rust/dirt etc. A good scrubbing of the bore and off to the range you go.
 
JB said:
Leave it the way it is,don't try to make it look new again :HR:
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YES! Small dings and general markings are just a patina that glorifies the passage through time. It takes a LOT of actual damage from mishaps or neglect to justify an actual restoration to like new. And it sounds like this one is easily much better than that.

If you suspect light flash rusting a good way to remove it and blend it back into the blueing is to give it a rub down with oil and fine steel wool. The steel in the steel wool is softer than the barrel metal and existing blueing so it will scuff off the rust without further marring the blueing. The little bit of rust it leaves behind will be blackened by the oil and blend with the blueing.

But note that it's important to use STEEL WOOL and not one of the plastic pot scrubbies or other sorts of scouring products. Similarly do not use SOS or other soap impregnated steel wool pads. Get clean steel wool from the paint department or store. Using anything else other than pure steel wool will just invite scratching and scoring.

That'll take care of any light rusting. From that point the wear from handling that has thinned and patterned the blueing is simply part of the patina of the old girl. Just keep the metal lightly oiled and it'll easily make it through another 104 years in fine condition.

At this point I would suggest that it is also worth removing the wood and detail stripping the gun to clean, inspect and lubricate all the parts. It's amazing what short of bird's nests of crap and corruption can collect in a tube mag over the years. Similarly inside the dark parts of the action if the gun has been kept in a dust and lint producer such as a closet.

While the wood parts are off if the finish is an oil finish I'd clean the surfaces of old oil, skin oils, mud and other dirt embedded from all the handling with a wash down using low odor paint thinner, This is otherwise known as mineral spirits. It's a "soft" solvent that won't attack the finish much, if at all. Do NOT use harsher solvents such as lacquer thinner or brake cleaner. You WILL strip off all the finish with such things. Another nice but more expensive gentle sort of solvent would be old style turpentine. But that stuff is pretty dear these days.

When the wood is dry and assuming it has an oil finish I'd rub it down with some boiled linseed oil or a tung oil wood finish. Rub it down then buff most of it off. During this I'd feed the end grain of the wood more generously and allow lots to soak into the wood. Allow the finish oil to dry/cure for a few days before re-installing the wood parts.

If the stock has varnish or lacquer on it then all you need to do is wipe it down with a damp rag. Assuming it has a few scuffs and gouges I'd want to rub a little boiled linseed oil into the openings to aid in sealing the exposed wood and try to avoid further lifting of the varnish.
 
After posting the one above I went looking for sources for .25-35 brass. It looks like you may have your hands full trying to source ammo or brass for this size cartridge. Hold onto what you've got for sure and begin the hunt for brass and sizing dies. You may be looking at some extra work to build more ammo for this gun.

The good news is that Wikipedia says that the parent case is good ol' .30-30 Winchester. So if you can find some .25-35 loading dies you SHOULD be able to reform some .30-30 down to suit.

The Hodgdon reloading data center has loading data for this round. It's zipping along at a pretty good clip for cast lead in most of the loadings so be very careful to watch for signs of leading. A better option might be to look into paper patching or just using jacketed bullets at these muzzle velocities. It's generally felt that cast bullets are only viable up to around 1500 to maybe 1700 fps. And the .25-35 is well over that.

Which brings up the question of what the stock ammo you have looks like. Is there a white ring around the mouth of the cases that suggest these loads are paper patched or do you have jacketed ammo?
 
+1 with what BCrider says.

On old gun stocks, short of refinishing, I like to use a bit of beeswax. Something like Claphams beeswax poilish. This will not harm any existing finish but will help keep the wood from drying out if the original finish is worn.
 
That rifle is 106 years old. It's entitled to look that way. Clean it - carefully! Remove old oils and severe rust, but leave that gorgeous patina alone. Lightly oil it to protect the metal. Clean the wood and use the bare minimum of varnish/BLO/tung oil on the scars.

That rifle has the one quality you can't fake - authentic aging. Enjoy it. And you'll have a rifle you'll never have to worry about when hunting!
 
Words well typed.
Oil'r up and enjoy her.
I've made 25-35 brass by necking down 30-30.
Cut them to a short 30-30 length first, then brush the inside of the necks
and clean the burrs from the mouth, then neck them down.
Necking down usually makes them grow a bit so keep them short to start off with.
Nice score, by the way.

Grouse Man said:
That rifle is 106 years old. It's entitled to look that way. Clean it - carefully! Remove old oils and severe rust, but leave that gorgeous patina alone. Lightly oil it to protect the metal. Clean the wood and use the bare minimum of varnish/BLO/tung oil on the scars.

That rifle has the one quality you can't fake - authentic aging. Enjoy it. And you'll have a rifle you'll never have to worry about when hunting!
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take all of the advice above....invest in a bore snake to freshen up the bore. A vintage Winchester needs to look like a vintage Winchester. You'll be the envy of every red blooded gun nut @ the range
 
Looks like an 1894 saddle ring carbine with a rifle butt stock. It could conceivably have been ordered that way but not likely. More often the butt stock got broken and was replaced with whatever was available. The .25/35 is a fairly rare chambering compared to the .30 WCF, .32 Special or even .38/55 in my area at least. I would clean it up and maybe find an original carbine butt for it. As far as cleaning goes less is more usually regarding vintage Winchesters. I rub the metal out with oily bronze wool to remove rust but not patina(don't be too aggressive). The wood can be rubbed down with 0000 steel wool soaked in turpentine to remove dirt and then wiped down with a clean rag. The sling swivels are aftermarket and detract from value but not a lot you can do about that. In my area .25/35 shells are quite common and cheap at gun shows. It is a decent deer round for the woods and a good slice of history.
 
Inside the rear wood under the top tang inletting, look for a number stamped in the wood.
It will be there, but could very well be hard to see.
The number should resemble the serial number on the receiver or the last few numbers
of it.
In this way you will know whether the wood is original to the receiver or not.
If you ever have the fore wood off, pull the mag tube off and check under the barrel where
it fits into the receiver. There is a flat machined into the barrel and it may have some info
stamped there as well if the barrel has been altered.
Now to find an original saddle ring........
 
Looks just great the way it is! Oil it up and take it shooting! Looks like the PCMR sling and band on it, what gives?

There's a lot to be said for patina... It's history.
 
Yes to Bcrider to a complete disassembly for both cleaning and inspection of parts. Also as Mike Webb identified that is NOT the original carbine buttstock re:butt plate but also from the pics the wood/metal "fit" especially at the upper tang suggests a replacement stock. If it was used as intended (a saddle gun) and involved in a horse "roll over" the first thing that "busts" is the buttstock. Maybe a little more hidden/forgotten history in the "Ol Winnie"? Hang onto to it, AND clean it up such as to preserve it in such a state that subsequent generations won't consider it junk and TRASH IT!!! Good luck - there's lots of us preserving these old guns - DON'T HESITATE to ask for help but ALSO get yourself some of the very good reference books on the old Winchesters (and Marlins).
 
Thanks for all the information and advice gang.

I know that my dad used this rifle as his saddle gun for years when he was cowboying in the BC interior. Before that this father used it as a deer rifle primarily. Long and short, it's got some miles on it and may well have been repaired any number of times. There is a saddle ring on the other side of the receiver and I'm not sure where the sling came from. It was probably added somewhere along the line to make it easier to pack through the bush while hunting. Is it primarily the way the stock seems to fit that leads you (Mike and superted) to conclude that this is not the original stock? I don't know a great deal about all this, but it's all very interesting to me.

For me, it's a slice of not only history, but family history and the gun means a lot to my dad. In fact, my grandfather's name is carved in to the stock so that probably detracts from any market value, but vastly increases its value to me. I'm not concerned about the monetary value of the rifle, but rather being able to clean it up to fire it as well as preserve it for my kids, and you all have provided a good start in that direction. My biggest concern is that I'll damage it accidentally or through firing it.
 
The butt stock that is on it is called a rifle butt stock because of the crescent butt plate that is pointed on both ends. The standard carbine butt was curved but very wide without the sharp corners.Carbine were sometimes ordered with what was called a shotgun butt with was a wide, flat butt similar to the old shotguns. The shotgun butts from Winchester could be had in steel or hard rubber. There is the odd carbine that was special ordered with a rifle butt but it wasn't a catalogue offering. Your gun dates too late by a few years for a factory letter confirming what original configuration it left the factory in. Model 1894's up to serial number 353,999 have complete factory records available after that it is anybody's guess. However if there is an assembly number on the tang of the butt(as has been mentioned) or under the butt plate that matches the serial number you may be in luck. Like I said, possible but not likely. Clean it up and use it, there is a lot to be said for carrying around a piece of family history.

Callicles said:
Thanks for all the information and advice gang.

I know that my dad used this rifle as his saddle gun for years when he was cowboying in the BC interior. Before that this father used it as a deer rifle primarily. Long and short, it's got some miles on it and may well have been repaired any number of times. There is a saddle ring on the other side of the receiver and I'm not sure where the sling came from. It was probably added somewhere along the line to make it easier to pack through the bush while hunting. Is it primarily the way the stock seems to fit that leads you (Mike and superted) to conclude that this is not the original stock? I don't know a great deal about all this, but it's all very interesting to me.

For me, it's a slice of not only history, but family history and the gun means a lot to my dad. In fact, my grandfather's name is carved in to the stock so that probably detracts from any market value, but vastly increases its value to me. I'm not concerned about the monetary value of the rifle, but rather being able to clean it up to fire it as well as preserve it for my kids, and you all have provided a good start in that direction. My biggest concern is that I'll damage it accidentally or through firing it.
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Ok, still haven't gotten around to cleaning up this old beauty. But, I've finally got some time and now I'm searching around wondering what to use. Somebody above suggested using mineral spirits for cleaning purposes. When I cleaned all the cosmoline out of my SKS, I disassembled it entirely, soaked it in mineral spirits, scrubbed it up, got all the metal nice and clean, let it dry, gave it a bit of oil and away we went. I'm wondering if, in general, mineral spirits is a good option for cleaning the metal portions and mechanisms of the gun. I know there are a million different opinions on what works best, but being a little new to this I'm trying to figure out if mineral spirits are a safe method (for the firearm). I also have an old Cooey Model 60 .22 that was my dad's childhood gun and it too is in need of a good cleaning. My plan is to strip both down, soak all the parts a little and get in there with a toothbrush and some rags, as well as giving the barrels a good cleaning.

On a related topic, I'm wondering if this is a generally good post-firing cleaning regiment. There aren't a lot of options around here except for the little containers of Hoppes etc and that can add up pretty quickly when doing a big cleaning. And, one more question, do any of you use an air compressor to dry and/or blow gunk out of your firearms? Thanks again.
 
Generally, doing anything to a collectable firearm drops the value by half. A 1908 Win 94 may or may not be a collectors piece. Have a look on the Winchester collector's site, but I suspect your rifle isn't. Collectors usually only want pristine examples. That doesn't mean your's is junk. Means it's a shooter. So a bath isn't going to lower its value. Especially as it came from your da's da.
Winchester still loads .25-35. 117 grain SP bullet only and it's kind of pricey. Where you are matters a bit. Shooter's Choice in Waterloo wants $51.95 per 20.
 
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