riddle me this! free floating a milsurp - can it help?

[Mr. Friendly]

I've a friend who swears the way they're designed is the best way to leave them, actions back in the day were built the way they were supposed to be, today's actions are 'weaker' in his eyes, so he says free floating the action/barrel would harm it's accuracy. now...that's a rather strong opinion, so I'd like to test the waters and see. what say have you?

edit - in this case, we're talking an M96 in 6.5x55 Swede. knowing that probably helps form your opinions, LOL!

 

[bigedp51]

There are two ways to tune a rifle for accuracy.

By hand loading and varying the amount of powder to control barrel vibrations.

Or by tuning the rifle to shoot one specific type of military cartridge, with bedding and up pressure at the fore end tip.

A standard Remington 700 rifle is not free floated and has 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip.

If you free float a barrel that wasn't free floating to begin with your are "taking it out of tune" and changing barrel harmonics.

At the instant of firing gravity and chamber pressure starts the barrel moving downward, and normally on the up swing the bullet leaves the barrel. If you can control this movement and get the bullet to leave the barrel at the exact same point of barrel movement you will have a small group size. If you have "bad vibes" you will shoot "bad" groups.

Example, in the photo below a No.4 Enfield at 50 yards stringing is shots vertically due to lack of up pressure at the fore end tip caused by wood shrinkage and the trigger guard bushing being too long.

Below the same Enfield rifle after re-shimming the draws area, and readjusting the forward trigger guard screw bushing-collar. This gave the Enfield rifle the required 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip that controls barrel vibrations and thus accuracy.

I have owned one rifle that came from the factory with a free floating barrel a Winchester model 70 with BOSS an adjustable weight at the end of the barrel used to control barrel vibrations.

Bottom line the average rifle shoots better with up pressure at the fore end tip and free floating the barrel just adds to your troubles.

 

[cosmic]

Hmmm.... Not sure I understand your post, most all original configuration milsurps were not free floated, including Swede mausers. If you have the rifle in original military configuration, you can pull the top handguard and barrel band off, and do a comparison test.
If its a sported milsurp, glass bedding the action and free floating the barrel generally yields the best results. In the absence of glass bedding its a crapshoot..

 

[smellie]

Lee-Enfields WERE floated, right from the factory. So were P-14s and US M-1917s.

There is a good explanation of the reasoning behind this mystifying action in THE TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909.

As to other rifles, it really depends on whether or not you care to shoot them. Don't think "Milsurp", think "RIFLE". If the RIFLE shoots better floated, then it should be
floated. WHAT POINT to spend all that money to build a million or six rifles of the same kind if you KNOW THEY WON'T SHOOT ACCURATELY?

A LOT of them were floated.
.

 

[bigedp51]

smellie

The ONLY Enfield rifles with free floating barrels are the L42 and the No.5.
Below the No.5 has a free floating barrel from the knox form to the fore end tip of the stock

The No.1 and No.4 Enfield did NOT have free floating barrels, below the No.4 has "clearance" between bearing contact points "D" and "E" but does NOT have a free floating barrel because the bearing point "E" is pushing upward on the barrel with 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure.

There is a difference between the words "clearance" and "free floating" a rifle with a free floating barrel has a barrel that does not touch the stock for its entire length. Both the No.1 and No.4 have wood contact that pushes upward on the barrel (up pressure) at the fore end tip of the stock.
NOTE: Even the "center bedded" No.4 was NOT free floating because the fore end tip was packed with cork sheeting and was to have 4 to 5 pounds of up pressure.

Do NOT confuse the word clearance with the words free floating, the up pressure of 2 to 7 pounds at the fore end tip of the No.4 is used to control barrel vibrations and thus increase accuracy.

 

[Gunnerr68]

I don't know a bunch about this topic so I have a question. From what I have read here so far. A no1mk3 that has been changed to a sporter has actually had its accuracy reduced by removing parts of the original stock ?

 

[louthepou]

I don't know a bunch about this topic so I have a question. From what I have read here so far. A no1mk3 that has been changed to a sporter has actually had its accuracy reduced by removing parts of the original stock ?

That is an interesting question, Gunnerr68. The fitting of a No1Mk3 forend is quite... peculiar. There are contact points here and there, and a mid-barrel ring in the middle pulling down on the barrel, and a plunger pushing up on the tip at the front... Bit of "wizardry".

On typical sporterized SMLE's, it's less than standard from one to the other! Sure, there will be some degree of accuracy, but I doubt it'll often be more accurate than a properly bedded, full-wood version...

Lou

 

[tiriaq]

A SMLE has a barrel band just to the rear of the forend swivel, and a spring loaded plunger pressing up on the barrel under the nosecap.

 

[H4831]

The "sportzerized" SMLEs I have seen shoot terrible.
That long, slim barrel just left free to wave around is not conducent to accuracy, as most on here think of accuracy.
Many of these chopped up army rifles came to the civilian public by means of being displayed in such stores as Woodwrds, in a barrel and priced at from 12 to 18 dollars each. You expect to get an accurate rifle?

 

[Gunnerr68]

Thanks for that link Lou. I think I am going to take on a rebuild. I am definitely an Enfield nut. A friend bought a no1mk3 and it was treated poorly. Going to see if we can sort that out. An example of its treatment is some sort of solder used to hold a non original rear sight on. Looks like when I first did some plumbing lol.

 

[purple]

The P14/M1917 Enfield required stock bearing at the forend tip, as did the M1903 Springfield. Some of them will shoot very well with a fully floated barrel w/o stock contact at the forend tip. You can try this by inserting a shim on the stock surface in front of the recoil lug. When doing this be careful that the barrel is not lifted to the point where it comes into contact with the metal of the upper band as this is runinous to accuracy(a condition known as a "bound barrel").

 

[bigedp51]

Remember this, the up pressure was used to "tune" the rifle for best accuracy with military ammunition. As soon as you shoot civilian commercial ammunition or reloads all bets are off.

Also keep this in mind, the No.4 Enfield had 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. A Remington 700 has 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip which would be where a center bedded No.4 would have up pressure with its longer fore stock.

If you look at the "Canadian Marksman" on center bedding the No.4 you will see center bedding was used to adjust accuracy at 300 yards and beyond. BUT up pressure was required at the fore tip of the stock to get good accuracy at 100 yards.

The Canadian Marksman

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=867

Also the steps cut in Mauser barrels were at vibration node points and were used to control barrel vibrations.

Below the same Enfield rifle, top without up pressure and loose bedding, bottom "with" up pressure and tight bedding with reloads, 10 shots at 50 yards.

 

[Ryan500]

What would work best in a nagant 91/30 in you guys opinion?

I had one that was bedded and free floated and it was okay but had no pressure anywhere on that looooong skiny barrel. I feel it could be better.