Rifle Nodes: How You’ve Been Wasting Your Time and Money on Load Development
- Thread starter CanMike
- Start date
I do think that the referenced Hornady podcast, along with some of Bryan Litz's books, will go down in history as the moment an entire community changed their opinions on and approach to load development.
This article adds substantial water to the tide of shifting opinions.
My one complaint with this article is that he used three poor-shooting rifles to do the testing. He mentions the possibility that if the old-school load development techniques were ever going to work, it would be on these poor-shooting rifles. And then he proves they don't work on these rifles: his 3 MOA rifle is still 3 MOA after his best efforts to find a special load.
However he really left uncharted the possibility that the techniques work on well-shooting rifles. It's very possible that any kind of load development classified as "fine-tuning" would require a fine-shooting rifle to expose the effect.
This article adds substantial water to the tide of shifting opinions.
My one complaint with this article is that he used three poor-shooting rifles to do the testing. He mentions the possibility that if the old-school load development techniques were ever going to work, it would be on these poor-shooting rifles. And then he proves they don't work on these rifles: his 3 MOA rifle is still 3 MOA after his best efforts to find a special load.
However he really left uncharted the possibility that the techniques work on well-shooting rifles. It's very possible that any kind of load development classified as "fine-tuning" would require a fine-shooting rifle to expose the effect.
Powder / Bullet relationship is a thing with regards to how the bullets disperse on target. H4350 may shoot tighter than IMR 4350 under ____ bullet in your particular rifle. Or vice versa
I've put about 5000 rounds downrange in the last year and a half, doing load development for about 2 dozen rifles and the nodes are gone when you do a 15 to 30 round sample of powder charge A vs B, seating depth A vs B
all I can say is, try doing some of these larger sample sized tests for yourself and let us know if the nodes go away
I've put about 5000 rounds downrange in the last year and a half, doing load development for about 2 dozen rifles and the nodes are gone when you do a 15 to 30 round sample of powder charge A vs B, seating depth A vs B
all I can say is, try doing some of these larger sample sized tests for yourself and let us know if the nodes go away
Hornady isn't lying about the dispersion factor, it exists, if they were, the benchresters would be able to shoot in the 1's all day long, every day. No matter how tight the gun will shoot consistently on a good day, it can shoot different 4 hrs later or a day later and different again a week later. Powders will usually produce the most variance, get the odd batch of bullets that does too, and some days the nut at the butt is at fault. Equipt is a factor, I would not expect most factory varmint gun or barrels to shoot with a built for comps gun. Not to mention that no matter how good it shoots, if you can't read wind, you can't shoot those tiny grps. I thought Little Crow did a pretty decent job of his 7mm comparison and the "reloading" vid after that with the 308 as far as powder selection, interpreting targets went, and dispelling some krap about ballistics. I don't see the node stuff being really reliable at less than about 25 shots to confirm, may take 50-75 shots to get to that point, by the time you go thru powder/pressure, finding powder chg or powder, seating depth. You can get to "good enough" quicker, but, that depends on your version of good enough some people's versions take more, some take less, some never really prove the load out all the way.
Groups of 2 are statistically significant as far as I'm concerned. But... I'll digress and say it should be atleast 3...4 is better. 5 is better yet. 6...you get the point.
But if your rifle system is dialed right in and as an operator you know you're not shanking shots...And you shoot 1....and the second one is an inch off... you may as well quit there. But fire a third one just to make sure it wasnt you. If that's an inch off in the other direction, scratch that load combination off the list.
If youre loading for 1/4 minute and the 2nd shot is already outside of 1/4 minute... why keep shooting it. Maybe shoot #3.
If you want it 1/4 ALL day, and the 2nd shot is a half minute off... the deviation is already no good.
If you fire 2 through the same hole...you dont have a 1/4 minute load but you're helluva lot closer than if the 2nd shot doesnt go 1/4 minute. You fire a third one... it goes through the same hole. You have 3 shots in a 1/4 minute. That's good enough to make a note of the load. Youre as close as youve ever been. You fire a 4th one... 3/8 minute. So how good are you? Are you good enough to load identical rounds? Is your rifle system good enough to shoot 1/4 minute all day. Are you as an operator good enough to shoot 1/4 min all day. Lets say yes to all of the above. Fire a 5th one, youre at 1/4 again 4 out of 5 aint bad. But youve already seen the deviation of an 1/8th inch. If you know it wasnt you or the rifle system... it's gotta be the load not holding 1/4. Or, you saw the 10% error 4 shots in and the next 20 or so go into 1/4 moa.
Let's say you get to 10 in a row all at 1/4 minute...we can be pretty confident its certainly a fine load... but 10 rounds isnt all day yet. Hornady is suggesting 30 rounds is 90% all day. There's still room for it to go 5/16 of a minute by 33% or whatever it is.
Until you can fire the bullet 30 times into a 1/4 minute... it's not all day. Even if you can, it's only 90% all day. Statistically.
Let's say you load up 25 groups of 2 in .1 grain increments(or whatever is respectable for the case size and pressure/velocity window) and none of them are even close to a 1/4 minute group.... you can probably gather that something in the entire system isnt even capable of 1/4 minute. You dont need to shoot the load 30 times to figure that out.
Lets say 3 of the 25 groups are damn near 1/4..... focus on those parameters and shoot them more to determine the potential.
How is it even possible to shoot benchrest scores, f class scores, etc. If the bullet cant hold 1/4 minute all day. Something needs to be predictable.
Youre not winning a BR match or cleaning an F class target without a load that shoots 90% of the time smaller than the goal.
I think these guys are just saying if you shoot it 3 times and its 1/4 minute... you got lucky. If you want to see what it actually does 90% of the time... shoot it 30 times. But if after 5 or 7 or whatever shots if youre already off the map, try something else.
If your goal is 1/4 minute all day... youve got a lot of development to embrace. If your goal is 7/8 minute PRS...... just start loading powder with a dipper and call it a day.
But if your rifle system is dialed right in and as an operator you know you're not shanking shots...And you shoot 1....and the second one is an inch off... you may as well quit there. But fire a third one just to make sure it wasnt you. If that's an inch off in the other direction, scratch that load combination off the list.
If youre loading for 1/4 minute and the 2nd shot is already outside of 1/4 minute... why keep shooting it. Maybe shoot #3.
If you want it 1/4 ALL day, and the 2nd shot is a half minute off... the deviation is already no good.
If you fire 2 through the same hole...you dont have a 1/4 minute load but you're helluva lot closer than if the 2nd shot doesnt go 1/4 minute. You fire a third one... it goes through the same hole. You have 3 shots in a 1/4 minute. That's good enough to make a note of the load. Youre as close as youve ever been. You fire a 4th one... 3/8 minute. So how good are you? Are you good enough to load identical rounds? Is your rifle system good enough to shoot 1/4 minute all day. Are you as an operator good enough to shoot 1/4 min all day. Lets say yes to all of the above. Fire a 5th one, youre at 1/4 again 4 out of 5 aint bad. But youve already seen the deviation of an 1/8th inch. If you know it wasnt you or the rifle system... it's gotta be the load not holding 1/4. Or, you saw the 10% error 4 shots in and the next 20 or so go into 1/4 moa.
Let's say you get to 10 in a row all at 1/4 minute...we can be pretty confident its certainly a fine load... but 10 rounds isnt all day yet. Hornady is suggesting 30 rounds is 90% all day. There's still room for it to go 5/16 of a minute by 33% or whatever it is.
Until you can fire the bullet 30 times into a 1/4 minute... it's not all day. Even if you can, it's only 90% all day. Statistically.
Let's say you load up 25 groups of 2 in .1 grain increments(or whatever is respectable for the case size and pressure/velocity window) and none of them are even close to a 1/4 minute group.... you can probably gather that something in the entire system isnt even capable of 1/4 minute. You dont need to shoot the load 30 times to figure that out.
Lets say 3 of the 25 groups are damn near 1/4..... focus on those parameters and shoot them more to determine the potential.
How is it even possible to shoot benchrest scores, f class scores, etc. If the bullet cant hold 1/4 minute all day. Something needs to be predictable.
Youre not winning a BR match or cleaning an F class target without a load that shoots 90% of the time smaller than the goal.
I think these guys are just saying if you shoot it 3 times and its 1/4 minute... you got lucky. If you want to see what it actually does 90% of the time... shoot it 30 times. But if after 5 or 7 or whatever shots if youre already off the map, try something else.
If your goal is 1/4 minute all day... youve got a lot of development to embrace. If your goal is 7/8 minute PRS...... just start loading powder with a dipper and call it a day.
Last edited:
The major issue with discussing group sizes, is what is needed for what discipline. Hunters maybe need minute of gopher head consistently at semi-unknown or unknown ranges, there are those who'll use a rangefinder on a gopher field, or out hunting yotes, deer, elk whatever, and those who won't. MOA or minute of gopher head at 100yds will "work" for those folk at under 500yds. Most folk will get away with factory guns under those parameters, many factory guns will shoot MOA or better now, and most guarantee it can be achieved with "a load", have been for 40 yrs or so. Just what load that is, is a bit of a guessing game. Most will meet that, some won't, some may do better, nature of the beast in mass production. They're not stocked or action tuned or barreled or assembled for benchrest or F-class level comps.
Then you get to more customized and specialized guns, and there are a few levels of those, to some extent. Those are the guns for competitors, people with a bit more OCD, and even those are divided by discipline to some extent. The gopher, rockchuck, yote hunters and PRS guys may be able to afford them, and want something that is capable of 1/2MOA or better.the bulk of them have good custom barrels, are usually built by a "custom" "gunsmith" like LIttle Crow, Gavin Toobe, and are stocked with a somewhat "customized" commercial stock, a Rem clone action of some form and a "custom" mfgr'd barrel, "good" trigger. If you watch Cortina's 500 yd KYL challenge, you'll see a bunch of those in a pretty practical usage situation, at a known distance even. And that level is good for the PRS guys and folk who bang steel at various ranges, most will shoot to .5MOA average pretty steady. Many use handloads, some run factory stuff still. Military sniping stuff is included in that group for the most part as well.
Then you get to the Benchrest and F-class comp level stuff, which are built by competitors who want a level of perfection even they only occasionally achieve, and are mostly people capable of shooting that stuff well enough to see the difference in a load and conditions and can actually read wind most days. They do customization on them themselves to some extent, many are machinists, or depend on someone like Speedy ar Alex Wheeler etc to tune an action, chamber a barrel and install it,, bed/modify an upper end commercial stock like a MacMillan, someone like Dima to make a stock for them or their gunsmith to install. They buy their barrels 3-5-10 at a time, make their own bullets or buy off a custom bullet maker.
You can make a handloaded round with a perfectly sized for chamber case, perfect runout, neck tension, powder charge, seating depth, it may shoot great, may shoot like krap in any 3 given guns, on a given day, Later that day, may be opposite, next day or next week may be the same or opposite. Krap could be 1-1/2MOA, 3/4MOA, 1/2MOA, .3MOA depending on what you think you need of it, your equipt level, shooting skills, conditions that day, elevation perhaps, whether you have an itchy ear at the moment, feel like coughing or sneezing, or not.
And then a wookie comes along and shoots a 200" deer, or wins a local turkey or steel shoot, may be a winner in their class (often the only one in that class), may be overall winner, with a "JC Higgins handmedown" gun and cheapo factory surplus loads, a regular Alvin York type. Us human beinz is a strange lot, arguing over .001" difference in a POI, vs an MOA, vs shooting at a gopher or an elephant. Can tell I'm bored today, can't you? Haven't even had my second coffee yet,
Then you get to more customized and specialized guns, and there are a few levels of those, to some extent. Those are the guns for competitors, people with a bit more OCD, and even those are divided by discipline to some extent. The gopher, rockchuck, yote hunters and PRS guys may be able to afford them, and want something that is capable of 1/2MOA or better.the bulk of them have good custom barrels, are usually built by a "custom" "gunsmith" like LIttle Crow, Gavin Toobe, and are stocked with a somewhat "customized" commercial stock, a Rem clone action of some form and a "custom" mfgr'd barrel, "good" trigger. If you watch Cortina's 500 yd KYL challenge, you'll see a bunch of those in a pretty practical usage situation, at a known distance even. And that level is good for the PRS guys and folk who bang steel at various ranges, most will shoot to .5MOA average pretty steady. Many use handloads, some run factory stuff still. Military sniping stuff is included in that group for the most part as well.
Then you get to the Benchrest and F-class comp level stuff, which are built by competitors who want a level of perfection even they only occasionally achieve, and are mostly people capable of shooting that stuff well enough to see the difference in a load and conditions and can actually read wind most days. They do customization on them themselves to some extent, many are machinists, or depend on someone like Speedy ar Alex Wheeler etc to tune an action, chamber a barrel and install it,, bed/modify an upper end commercial stock like a MacMillan, someone like Dima to make a stock for them or their gunsmith to install. They buy their barrels 3-5-10 at a time, make their own bullets or buy off a custom bullet maker.
You can make a handloaded round with a perfectly sized for chamber case, perfect runout, neck tension, powder charge, seating depth, it may shoot great, may shoot like krap in any 3 given guns, on a given day, Later that day, may be opposite, next day or next week may be the same or opposite. Krap could be 1-1/2MOA, 3/4MOA, 1/2MOA, .3MOA depending on what you think you need of it, your equipt level, shooting skills, conditions that day, elevation perhaps, whether you have an itchy ear at the moment, feel like coughing or sneezing, or not.
And then a wookie comes along and shoots a 200" deer, or wins a local turkey or steel shoot, may be a winner in their class (often the only one in that class), may be overall winner, with a "JC Higgins handmedown" gun and cheapo factory surplus loads, a regular Alvin York type. Us human beinz is a strange lot, arguing over .001" difference in a POI, vs an MOA, vs shooting at a gopher or an elephant. Can tell I'm bored today, can't you? Haven't even had my second coffee yet,
