Yes.... but a 30-30 has to only push a .300" projectile into the deer and penetrate the vitals.... not a 0.73" one like a 12 gauge....
rifled slug vs smooth 870 barrels ?
- Thread starter modernworrior
- Start date
Yes.... but a 30-30 has to only push a .300" projectile into the deer and penetrate the vitals.... not a 0.73" one like a 12 gauge....
canadian hunter312
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County
you wouldn't, but many do with excellent results.
i fail to understand why you're defending the inferior rifled slugs so much. i suggest you do some reading on the subject so you'll understand how much better a rifled barrel/sabot combo actually is.
LOL... I would rather shoot and see the results for myself than read what the manufacturers tell me their stuff can do.... but here.... read about an actual test where someone actually talks about results from firing them and not what they do on paper.... the difference is nominal.....
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot46.htm
canadian hunter312
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County
you're aware they were firing them to see exactly what they do on paper? since we're talking about accuracy, that's the only thing that matters in this debate
you'd rather shoot and see the results for yourself rather than read something? obviously you've never shot any shotguns with rifled barrels and sabots if you think a properly matched rifled barrel and sabot only has marginal increases in accuracy over a smooth bore.
when i said you should do some reading, i was suggesting you read some of the thousands of posts and articles online supporting the fact that rifled barrels and sabots are MUCH more accurate than smooth bores. the only relevant info from ammunition manufacturers is the velocity and energy of each round.
i have to ask, did you even bother reading through what you just posted? we're debating the accuracy of rifled barrels vs smooth bores and the link you posted is even more evidence of rifled barrels being more accurate. the only time the smooth bore was somewhat close to a rifled barrels accuracy was when they changed loads and the rifled barrels groups dropped from 2" to 6". all that has proven is you need to find the load for your gun. refer to their summary: 3. Different shotguns "like" different loads. Just like rifles and pistols. You must try different loads to find what your gun "likes". their rifled barrel produced a group that was HALF the size of their smallest smooth bore group.
i've personally shot 3 different shotguns with rifled barrels and every single one shot groups that were at least half that of rifled slugs out of a smooth bore and i've shot slugs through 5 or 6 different smooth bores. personal experience combined with the fact that everyone, besides you, knows a rifled barrel is much more accurate is all the proof anyone needs.
why are you having so much trouble wrapping your head around the concept that a spinning round is more stable and inherently more accurate than a projectile with zero spin? silly me thought it was common knowledge. maybe you'll understand if you google "rifled barrel vs smooth bore" and educate yourself? you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks a rifled barrel provides a "marginal" increase in accuracy over the old school rifled slugs out of a smooth bore.
when speaking of rifles, cutting your groups in half is considered a huge increase in accuracy, but when we're talking about shotguns it's only a marginal increase in accuracy? i don't think so
Geeze... lay off the coffee, it's a discussion board, you know, for discussing things...I have both... I have fired both...
What they do "on paper" = what they do when you read about them... not what they do to a paper target....
1- Nowhere do I say they are equal or "defend" rifled slugs.... I simply said for hunting purposes within what I consider a slug's range the difference is minimal....
2- If you and your friends are out trying to push a slug to 200 yards then yes, absolutely there is a big difference... as I said, I wouldn't try to push one out that far... too much holdover, velocity drop etc.... I offered my opinion hence the JMOP after my first post.... many agreed with it... some do not, that is fine....
We don't compare them to rifles because they aren't rifles.... 1" at 100 yards is a big deal to a rifle because it is 4 inches at 400.... I'd wager most people here don't consider 200 yards "slug range".....
What they do "on paper" = what they do when you read about them... not what they do to a paper target....
1- Nowhere do I say they are equal or "defend" rifled slugs.... I simply said for hunting purposes within what I consider a slug's range the difference is minimal....
2- If you and your friends are out trying to push a slug to 200 yards then yes, absolutely there is a big difference... as I said, I wouldn't try to push one out that far... too much holdover, velocity drop etc.... I offered my opinion hence the JMOP after my first post.... many agreed with it... some do not, that is fine....
We don't compare them to rifles because they aren't rifles.... 1" at 100 yards is a big deal to a rifle because it is 4 inches at 400.... I'd wager most people here don't consider 200 yards "slug range".....
Actually 12ga sabot slugs are .50 cal slugs as opposed to a .73 rifled slug. They are often muzzle loader slugs loaded to 12 ga shells. They certainly have no problem with penetration. For instance, I fired a follow up shot on a jumping buck I had already hit in the vitals at 160 yds. The slug entered a hind quarter, destroyed the pelvic bone and was just beneath the hide on the far quarter. I wish I had never fired a shot at that animal as that slug turned most of the rear quarters to jelly (waste).
Ironically, we have, on more than one occasion, found rifled slugs and buckshot healed over beneath the hide in deer that our party has harvested.
If a hunter practices long range shooting with sabots, then there is no reason that deer shouldn't be harvested at 150-200yds under the right conditions. That's what they are made for.
Back to the OP, if your shots will be under 75 yds with slugs then a smooth bore is the way to go as it is capable of shooting much more than just slugs.
OK... I'll buy in.... If OP is willing to practice extensively at $4.00 a round to be able to shoot out to 200 yards versus 100-125 under "the right conditions".. then sure...
I also have both.However, my rifled barrel is not a high end outfit, it's an 870 express barrel. There is no doubt whatsoever that a Savage bolt gun (I've seen it done) can accurately hit a target at 200 yards. IIRC, ballistics for a 350 gr. 50 cal sabot are pretty close to those of a 45-70, so there is no problem with killing power out to at the very least 200 yds. Also, as some have mentioned, a 50 cal. sabot would have plenty of oomph at 200 yds. to bring down just about any critter in North America. As far as 72 cal penetration goes, a brown Bess will easily kill a deer-sized critter and is traveling at around 1000 fps at 50 yds, so a 1 oz slug would have no problems. If I were hunting in areas where I could reasonably expect shots around 100 yds or over, I would spend the time and money necessary to either get my rifled combo shooting as I want, or I'd invest in something specifically designed for long-range accuracy. Given that 100 yds. is the absolute max. I would ever shoot where I hunt, and the vast majority of shots are under 30 yds, my Browning BPS is more than satisfactoy.
Yes... having looked at the energy table on these sabots I must admit I was quite surprised... my only remaining concern, however is the angle at impact.... in other words, you're shooting down from a treestand, 200 yard shot ... also the slug is travelling on a decreasing trajectory... where do you have to aim to hit the lungs and heart? think about it..... it isn't always about "oomph"
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i was in this situation last year i went with a rifled barrel and i am very impressed, within my hunting party now 3 more people have bought them after seeing the performance, i reccomend the rifled, everyone is correct when they say there if a price diffrence, in the end both are good, stats show the the sabbots are better, but are a lil more costly.
- Location
- Kawartha Lakes, Ontario
The OP stated that he is looking to shoot with open sights.
That alone will diminish the value of going to a rifled barrel and saboted slugs.
Given real world hunting conditions (i.e. shooting offhand, open sights, possible moving target, and likely range under 100 yards) I'd have to agree that the notion of a useful accuracy difference is pretty theoretical.
Will it be worth the fellow's money to pay more for a rifled barrel and significantly more expensive ammo?
That's his money, and his decision.
That alone will diminish the value of going to a rifled barrel and saboted slugs.
Given real world hunting conditions (i.e. shooting offhand, open sights, possible moving target, and likely range under 100 yards) I'd have to agree that the notion of a useful accuracy difference is pretty theoretical.
Will it be worth the fellow's money to pay more for a rifled barrel and significantly more expensive ammo?
That's his money, and his decision.
Better read this post again.
canadian hunter312
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County
exactly what i had and with copper solids i regularly shot 2 1/2" groups outside to outside, so roughly 1 1/2" groups at 125 yards. this was with a scope mounted. i sold it and plan on replacing it with a dedicated slug gun but i'm not sure if that was s good idea or not...
the key to accuracy is finding the load that your setup likes. i got excellent groups with 2 3/4" copper solids, but 4-5" groups with the 3 inchers and was averaging 3" groups after a few different brands, but those copper solids were the ticket.
someone else should follow that advice as well.
to the OP...yes, the rifled barrel is almost always better and a scope will almost always increase your accuracy. therefore, if you opt to spend the extra money on a rifled barrel and mounting a scope you will almost always cut the size of groups in half of that of a smooth bore. the end result is being able to shoot with confidence at farther ranges and it's worth every penny.
once you have your gun dialed in, you leave your scope on the mount and its usually close to zero after switching from bird shot mode back to deer sniper mode
after that it's a box to rezero and make sure everything is good before hunting. then, you'll use one round for a deer. so, maybe 2 boxes of ammo a year? but, you'll want to shoot it more than that anyways
as for holdover...
using hornady sst's and a 150 yard zero you'll be aiming bang on out to 175 and good to 225 yards if the accuracy is there. 1198 ft/lbs at 200 yards = dead deer.
Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle 50 100 150 200
-1.50 2.40 2.70 0.00 -6.70
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle............50..........100...........150...........200
2000/2664 1816/2196 1641/1793 1482/1463 1341/1198
- Location
- Kawartha Lakes, Ontario
I just have a choke for the different occasions. I scoped my 870 because I have serious right eye problems so I found the interchangeable multi purpose barrel with cantilever. I can screw in a rifled choke if I feel I need to and use sabots but I don't see the need.
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i want that barrel! i didnt know they have plane bore with cantilever mount on it, and a rifled choke!where did you get a rem rifled choke?
from what i read before buying, the fully rifled with sabots is more accurate than planebore with rifled slugs.
the sabots are much more money than the rifled as well.
i do have 2 plane bore barrels, and going to get a saddlemount and pop a red dot on it.
ive got a fully rifled with a scope for deer.
Winchester-1897
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Newmarket,Ontario
i want that barrel! i didnt know they have plane bore with cantilever mount on it, and a rifled choke!where did you get a rem rifled choke?
from what i read before buying, the fully rifled with sabots is more accurate than planebore with rifled slugs.
the sabots are much more money than the rifled as well.
i do have 2 plane bore barrels, and going to get a saddlemount and pop a red dot on it.
ive got a fully rifled with a scope for deer.
That barrel is pretty hard to come by in Canada for some reason. I had to write a letter to Remington USA a few years back to find someone in Canada to sell it to me. The Americans like Midway that had them would not deal with Canadians.
The Gravel Agency in Quebec was very helpful in getting it to me. If I remember it was about $300.00 though.
A cantilever mount can also be added to a barrel. A tapped block is welded to the bbl and the mount screws to it; making it removable. I could still see my rifle sights with it removed. This was close to 10 yrs ago but the cost was around $75. It was solid and shot well.
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Winchester-1897
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Newmarket,Ontario
A cantilever mount can also be added to a barrel. A tapped block is welded to the bbl and the mount screws to it; making it removable. I could still see my rifle sights with it removed. This was close to 10 yrs ago but the cost was around $75. It was solid and shot well.
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Nice rig.
modernworrior
CGN Regular
- Location
- Brampton On,
ok update guys , i just got a package picked up a barrel and scope mount from the ee both in awsome shape great prices very happy, The barrel fits well , it is a rifled barrel with rifle sights, but i only wanted those incase i don't use a optic but i will use a optic 99% of the time. I have to get some pictures up soon. Can anyone reccomend a shotgun scope in camo preferably mossy oak ?
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Now it's not a totally fair comparison but, I have a 12 gauge smoothbore M37 Ithaca Deerslayer and with standard Winchester 2 3/4inch foster slugs and it's iron sights I get around fist sized groups from a rest.
On the other hand I have an older 20 gauge M37 Ithaca Featherweight and I have an interchangeable fully rifled barrel and this is my results at 35 & 75 yards, again with iron sights off a rest:
Note these results are with Winchester Supreme Partition Gold 2 3/4inch 260 grain .452 calibre sabot slug moving along at 1900 fps.
That's a lot of energy for a 5.8 pound shotgun!
(I concur about the cost, in 2006 these sabot slugs were $17 for a 5 pack)
On the other hand I have an older 20 gauge M37 Ithaca Featherweight and I have an interchangeable fully rifled barrel and this is my results at 35 & 75 yards, again with iron sights off a rest:
Note these results are with Winchester Supreme Partition Gold 2 3/4inch 260 grain .452 calibre sabot slug moving along at 1900 fps.
That's a lot of energy for a 5.8 pound shotgun!
(I concur about the cost, in 2006 these sabot slugs were $17 for a 5 pack)
