Rifling Question on Milsurps

Drachenblut

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Ok, heres one I thought I would ask:

How does the wearability of the rifling work on an old milsurp? Let's say we start with 60% rifling, a nice shiny mirror bore on a 43' M-38 for example. How many shots can you take out of it, approximately, before it needs to be scrapped? How long does the barrel last? What can be done other than the obvious (not overheating, cleaning well, cleaning after corrosive ammo almost immediately, oiling well etc) to aid in bore life preservation? How about Enfields? Other service rifles? How do they stand up to rifling wear/barrel use?

Let me know, still learning.

Yours,
D
 
Bores do not last forever so even under the best of circumstances, the bore will wear away. If it gets to the point you can't hit the paper, just do what the Russians did...counter bore it comrade! :D
 
Well sure a rifle barrel will not last forever but with a barrel at 60% rifling i think you can shoot many thousands bullets before he's wornout. maybe 2000+ rounds through it IMAO.
 
IMO truly "wearing out" a modern-ish barrel like that is virtually impossible <unless> there is something questionable in the metallurgy (cracks and such). If you reload you can always get larger diameter bullets to match the increase in the diameter of the bore. After a certain point the barrel will become "unserviceable" by military standards due to excessive wear, but there's usually thousands upon thousands of rounds left to the barrel's "life". Remember that a large proportion of milsurp rifles were surplussed BECAUSE they were "unserviceable" by military standards, yet they have been enjoyed by 3-4 generations since then and still harvest game every year ....
 
IMO truly "wearing out" a modern-ish barrel like that is virtually impossible <unless> there is something questionable in the metallurgy (cracks and such). If you reload you can always get larger diameter bullets to match the increase in the diameter of the bore. After a certain point the barrel will become "unserviceable" by military standards due to excessive wear, but there's usually thousands upon thousands of rounds left to the barrel's "life". Remember that a large proportion of milsurp rifles were surplussed BECAUSE they were "unserviceable" by military standards, yet they have been enjoyed by 3-4 generations since then and still harvest game every year ....

Good post Rob! I don't think anyone could have said it better.
 
The Brits tried to trash an SMLE barrel in 1908, pretty well succeeded. They started with a new barrel and about a dozen cases of ammo, did measurements and took target measurements every 1,000 rounds. After 12,000 rounds they decided that the barrel was unserviceable and needed to be replaced.

Remember, this was using CORDITE MARK I, which was famed for its erosive powers, but it also was using Enfield rifling, which has recently been rediscovered by the Americans and is now called '5r' rifling. The British rifling turned to the left, but otherwise was identical.

So the Brits did the sensible thing.... and changed their powder in 1910 to the far-less-erosive Cordite MDT 5-2.

And, by the way, the IMR-type powders used in the DI-Z ammo of War Two was less-erosive yet.

Treat them right and they will last a long time.

Mausers, on the other hand, seem to start falling apart after about 3,000 rounds, same as a 1903 Springfield.

Mebbe the Limeys knew a thing or two, hunh?
 
I use lead bullets in my old milsurps. these work well for target shooting out to 200yds, I have never tried them at longer range, and they will not hurt your barrel.

Brownie
 
... Remember that a large proportion of milsurp rifles were surplussed BECAUSE they were "unserviceable" by military standards, ....


How large do you think that proportion is? I have always thought that the reason most military firearms are declared surplus and disposed of is because they become obsolete before they are worn out and the military needs to replace them with new technology.
 
I think more military barrels were boogered by negligent cleaning under field conditions(which permitted corrosion by primer salts) and by improper use of cleaning rods and pull thrus which created undue muzzle wear. Over the course of firing many rounds, hot propellant gases will progressively erode the rifling from the barrel throat forward to a point where the rifling is eroded to the point of unservicability and rejection.

There are established reject standards for military barrels. These are well documented for the Lee-Enfield, M1903 Springfield, and M1 Garand to quote a few well known rifles.

For the '03 Springfield the bore reject limit is .308 (for rifles on issue to troops,not arsenal standards) on the proper gauge when measured from the breech end. I have one rifle with an unpitted,but worn, bore which reads .307 on this gauge-almost the reject limit. The muzzle is concentric on this rifle and free of cuts and puckers, and measures .303 on a plug gauge. In spite of this degree of wear this rifle will still group to 3" with quality handloads,so it would appear that the reject standard is appropriate. I have installed several new '03 barrels with known round counts on them following installation. One began with .300 in the throat,and after just plus of 800 rds the throat now measures .301. I would not necessarily extrapolate this to mean that the bore will erode a further .001 for every 800-1000 rds fired.

The reject limit for the M1 Garand in the hands of troops is .310 on a GI throat erosion gauge. That's a swack of wear from a starting point of .300 or .301 on a new barrel. I'd like to see one of these as the rifling would have worn to a shadow. I've never owned a Garand which measured more than .304 in the throat, but have had several that were a bit plus of .303 at the muzzles. They still shot acceptably well in spite of this after the crowns were cleaned up. For really worn muzzles, some barrels can be salvaged and restored to better accuracy by counter-boring back to the useful rifling. This technique has been used on many military barrels.

When the US re-worked the P14 rifle to produce the M1917 in .30-06 they retained the 5 groove Enfield form of rifling and concluded that this rifling was more resistant to erosion than was the standard 4 groove M1903 Springfield barrels. Having said that, the .30-06 and .303 are fairly benign on the bore with cooler burning modern propellants, so I would hazard that life expectancy might be in the order of 8000-10000 rds. Gilt edge target accuracy would begin to fall off after perhaps 3-4000 rds, but who among us shoots that well with irons to notice this.

By comparison some ctgs, like the .264 Win Mag and .257 Weatherby, are badly over bore capacity,even with slow burning propellants,and bores will begin to wash out in fairly short order.

As an aside, I have a No4 .303 barrel, which I got from the late Tom Richardson many moons ago. This barrel has had approx 150 rds thru it since new and measures .3015 at the muzzle vs the nominal .303. I've been tempted to try some .308 bullets in it vs the standard .311.
 
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