Rimfire Muzzle Tuner Device? Worth it?
- Thread starter Canadiankeeper
- Start date
Odd? Sounds like your view is that shooting perfect scores with SK Standard Plus is regular and frequent thing.
The number of tuner failures observed were because one was bought as an end all by someone who had success.
Unless you have excellent results with a particular lot of ammunition then a tuner should compliment the rifle, scope and shooter.
I have had three tuners and two went with the rifle when sold.
Currently there is only one on my Remington 40XB. The is bout 700 rounds of Remington Eley match left. Once it is gone, the process starts over searching for the best ammunition available. Even I am realistic that the same process starts over when that Remington Eley Match ends.
The same principles I have being alluded to are the same ones facing beginners.
Unless you have excellent results with a particular lot of ammunition then a tuner should compliment the rifle, scope and shooter.
I have had three tuners and two went with the rifle when sold.
Currently there is only one on my Remington 40XB. The is bout 700 rounds of Remington Eley match left. Once it is gone, the process starts over searching for the best ammunition available. Even I am realistic that the same process starts over when that Remington Eley Match ends.
The same principles I have being alluded to are the same ones facing beginners.
To clarify for reader who may have got the wrong impression from my post I said I shot my first perfect score with SK/64MPR and no, for those who may have been misled, it wasn't a frequent thing. But it did happen more than once and (relevant to the OPs question) it was accomplished with a modest rifle and ammo combination. And, I believe, the combination benefited from the tuner I was using. I would say not everyone is equally adept at discerning the subtle improvements tuner use may provide.
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Leuchtkafer
Member
Anschütz 1416 HB, SK Rifle Match, no muzzle device
With muzzle device
Huh. Either some very misguided assertions have been posted or what I did is pure luck unrepeatable freak occurrence...
Why wouldn't any barrel benefit from a properly sized/weighted and set muzzle device? Explain that assertion in detail and provide supporting evidence.
Why wouldn't any ammo, regardless of quality, show improved results when shot through a barrel with a properly sized/weighted and set muzzle device? Explain that assertion and provide supporting evidence.
With muzzle device
Huh. Either some very misguided assertions have been posted or what I did is pure luck unrepeatable freak occurrence...
Why wouldn't any barrel benefit from a properly sized/weighted and set muzzle device? Explain that assertion in detail and provide supporting evidence.
Why wouldn't any ammo, regardless of quality, show improved results when shot through a barrel with a properly sized/weighted and set muzzle device? Explain that assertion and provide supporting evidence.
Leuchtkafer (banned former CGN poster RabidM4U5), as you may know (and probably posted many times in the past on this forum), anyone can take a few groups to show something he wants others to see. It doesn't constitute reliable and repeatable evidence. Furthermore, you are no doubt unaware of any serious BR shooters who claim that SK ammo is reliably tunable.
Leuchtkafer, that is exactly the reply that RabidM4U5 often made on this forum and elsewhere when he had nothing to support what you alleged.
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For more serious readers, the bottom line with SK ammo and tuners is that SK is by its nature an inconsistent ammo. That is to say, flyers are a regular characteristic of the ammo. It's possible to get a number of "good" rounds consecutively, but the flyers are inevitable and unavoidable. That's what entry-level match ammo is like. Group sizes will vary considerably at 50 yards, and at longer distances become unpredictable.
When trying to find a tuner setting with SK, it can be quite difficult. No one can know if what's seen on target is due to ammo variation or the tuner. This is why SK is not a good ammo to use with a tuner.
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For more serious readers, the bottom line with SK ammo and tuners is that SK is by its nature an inconsistent ammo. That is to say, flyers are a regular characteristic of the ammo. It's possible to get a number of "good" rounds consecutively, but the flyers are inevitable and unavoidable. That's what entry-level match ammo is like. Group sizes will vary considerably at 50 yards, and at longer distances become unpredictable.
When trying to find a tuner setting with SK, it can be quite difficult. No one can know if what's seen on target is due to ammo variation or the tuner. This is why SK is not a good ammo to use with a tuner.
If you don't need one, great... but be prepared to use one given our access to limited lots of quality match ammo.
I use 'tuners' and they do what they are supposed to do and nothing more. You can't make a bad barrel or ammo shoot great with a hunk of metal on the muzzle. But if you have good components that just aren't getting along, a tuner can help.
the key to anyone considering this and is new to rimfire, accept that if you want good ammo, it will cost ... there is no mid grade that will shoot to top tier levels no matter what you shoot it in. Once you accept that you will need a top tier match ammo (highest grade Eley or RWS, something Lapua), then you need to source as many lots of the match ammo that shows the best results in your set up.
Barrels are picky... some just will not shoot a particular brand or type. Not right or wrong, just rimfire. 2X5rds at 100yds.. if it doesn't group well under 2" (count ALL your shots), move on to another type of ammo. When you change brands and types, clean the bore or at least toss 10rds into the dirt to refoul the bore before starting the testing. Why you want to test same brands together - fouling needs are much less.
There will be flyers in pretty much all ammo you use. The amount and severity will vary but it is going to be there so learn how to do that statistical math stuff (and no, that has nothing to do with the velocity ES/SD) on your groups... and shoot a bunch of groups... and shoot it beyond 50yds. You want to have enough data to see the true average of your system. I would say 5X5ds is a min... unless it royally sucks out of the gate.
On a calm or light steady wind day, 200yds is not far. 100yds is a min.
And before the snowflakes start chiming in on how weather, wind, conditions, passing birds will make shooting good groups impossible at that distance, know that you have alot to learn about how to shoot, dope conditions AND find good ammo. Around 4 to 5" at 200yds is entirely doable with todays kit and quality ammo.... if you are grouping much larger, how the heck do you expect to hit anything in a match? FYI, I do my final selection on a windy day at 400yds.
Working with a tuner at 100yds and beyond is going to show good and bad real fast. Leave the chronie at home, watch the wind flags (you are testing with flags right?), and know where every shot lands as you fire it.... this matters far more then any chronie data will ever tell you.
The most important for a newbie, DONT MAKE EXCUSES!!!! There are no pulled shots- take your time, be comfortable, well supported. Yes, that shot way the heck out there IS a flyer (unless you weren't watching the big wind change). Understand what and where the flyers are going and life will be far easier in rimfire. And when you understand the crappy level of your ammo, you can set up a tuner and it will make sense.
As I started, hopefully, you will be lucky and the naked barrel will react to your first batch of true match ammo and you go live happy happy. For 99% of us, the work begins. I run Lapua CenterX because it has shown to be consistently adequate (didn't say great) for my needs in rimfire PRS. The gains in Midas+ and XACT don't justify the added cost for my needs... but that might be what works for your barrel (sorry).
If the naked barrels shows promise (around 1" to 1.5" worst group) at 100, then I add a tuner and see what happens. Within 1 revolution of any suitable tuner will tell you if it is helping or hurting. I move it in small increments - on a tuna can, it is one hash mark, shoot 1X5rds and see what happens. If the first 3rds shoot much worst then naked, I don't waste anymore and move to the next mark.
This is a binary tool... helps or hurts. Setting improves or gets worst. That is all it is and all it does. It isn't magic and easy to use.
When you get a setting that works, it will repeat. If it doesn't, check the brand on the ammo box. Flyers in mid grade ammo can run well over 25% (that is what a split group represents). In top level ammo, 5 to 10% is not out of the question... I just hope that the flyer still lands within the confines of my target.
YMMV...
Jerry
PS if only shooting to 50, all the above applies and more ammo will seem to shoot well but highest grade ammo is a good investment
I use 'tuners' and they do what they are supposed to do and nothing more. You can't make a bad barrel or ammo shoot great with a hunk of metal on the muzzle. But if you have good components that just aren't getting along, a tuner can help.
the key to anyone considering this and is new to rimfire, accept that if you want good ammo, it will cost ... there is no mid grade that will shoot to top tier levels no matter what you shoot it in. Once you accept that you will need a top tier match ammo (highest grade Eley or RWS, something Lapua), then you need to source as many lots of the match ammo that shows the best results in your set up.
Barrels are picky... some just will not shoot a particular brand or type. Not right or wrong, just rimfire. 2X5rds at 100yds.. if it doesn't group well under 2" (count ALL your shots), move on to another type of ammo. When you change brands and types, clean the bore or at least toss 10rds into the dirt to refoul the bore before starting the testing. Why you want to test same brands together - fouling needs are much less.
There will be flyers in pretty much all ammo you use. The amount and severity will vary but it is going to be there so learn how to do that statistical math stuff (and no, that has nothing to do with the velocity ES/SD) on your groups... and shoot a bunch of groups... and shoot it beyond 50yds. You want to have enough data to see the true average of your system. I would say 5X5ds is a min... unless it royally sucks out of the gate.
On a calm or light steady wind day, 200yds is not far. 100yds is a min.
And before the snowflakes start chiming in on how weather, wind, conditions, passing birds will make shooting good groups impossible at that distance, know that you have alot to learn about how to shoot, dope conditions AND find good ammo. Around 4 to 5" at 200yds is entirely doable with todays kit and quality ammo.... if you are grouping much larger, how the heck do you expect to hit anything in a match? FYI, I do my final selection on a windy day at 400yds.
Working with a tuner at 100yds and beyond is going to show good and bad real fast. Leave the chronie at home, watch the wind flags (you are testing with flags right?), and know where every shot lands as you fire it.... this matters far more then any chronie data will ever tell you.
The most important for a newbie, DONT MAKE EXCUSES!!!! There are no pulled shots- take your time, be comfortable, well supported. Yes, that shot way the heck out there IS a flyer (unless you weren't watching the big wind change). Understand what and where the flyers are going and life will be far easier in rimfire. And when you understand the crappy level of your ammo, you can set up a tuner and it will make sense.
As I started, hopefully, you will be lucky and the naked barrel will react to your first batch of true match ammo and you go live happy happy. For 99% of us, the work begins. I run Lapua CenterX because it has shown to be consistently adequate (didn't say great) for my needs in rimfire PRS. The gains in Midas+ and XACT don't justify the added cost for my needs... but that might be what works for your barrel (sorry).
If the naked barrels shows promise (around 1" to 1.5" worst group) at 100, then I add a tuner and see what happens. Within 1 revolution of any suitable tuner will tell you if it is helping or hurting. I move it in small increments - on a tuna can, it is one hash mark, shoot 1X5rds and see what happens. If the first 3rds shoot much worst then naked, I don't waste anymore and move to the next mark.
This is a binary tool... helps or hurts. Setting improves or gets worst. That is all it is and all it does. It isn't magic and easy to use.
When you get a setting that works, it will repeat. If it doesn't, check the brand on the ammo box. Flyers in mid grade ammo can run well over 25% (that is what a split group represents). In top level ammo, 5 to 10% is not out of the question... I just hope that the flyer still lands within the confines of my target.
YMMV...
Jerry
PS if only shooting to 50, all the above applies and more ammo will seem to shoot well but highest grade ammo is a good investment
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Some suggestions for interested readers.
The first step with a tuner should never be shooting at 100 or 200 yards. No one should think that all that is done is to buy a tuner and attach it to the muzzle so that group sizes will shrink. Unless a shooter is blessed with remarkably good luck, much more work is required.
Start testing at 50 yards to find a good tuner setting. This requires shooting at different tuner settings in a methodical, systematic way. For example, begin with a tuner setting at 0 (or something else). Shoot for results. Then change the tuner incrementally and shoot again and repeat over and over. Compare results for potentially good tuner settings.
Rimfire benchrest tuners typically have hundreds of settings. Once one or more potentially good settings are found, they must be retested and verified to prove that they work again and again.
If you start at 100 or worse, at 200, there is no reliable way to know if the results seen on target are because of shooter error, wind, ammo variation or something else. Tuner testing must be done at a distance where changes in results are more likely because of the tuner than something else.
As a note of interest, Bryan Litz tested .22LR with tuners and reported his findings in his recent book Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting, Volume III. He tested a CZ 457 with a custom barrel and shot SK Long Range Match ammo. While he didn't appear to appreciate the shortcomings of his tuner testing methodology, he found no improvement with the use of a tuner. (Of course that's not to say that tuners don't work; rather they don't work as easily as some might suggest.)
For more details on Litz's results, see https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/litz-says-no-evidence-for-tuners.2363129/
The first step with a tuner should never be shooting at 100 or 200 yards. No one should think that all that is done is to buy a tuner and attach it to the muzzle so that group sizes will shrink. Unless a shooter is blessed with remarkably good luck, much more work is required.
Start testing at 50 yards to find a good tuner setting. This requires shooting at different tuner settings in a methodical, systematic way. For example, begin with a tuner setting at 0 (or something else). Shoot for results. Then change the tuner incrementally and shoot again and repeat over and over. Compare results for potentially good tuner settings.
Rimfire benchrest tuners typically have hundreds of settings. Once one or more potentially good settings are found, they must be retested and verified to prove that they work again and again.
If you start at 100 or worse, at 200, there is no reliable way to know if the results seen on target are because of shooter error, wind, ammo variation or something else. Tuner testing must be done at a distance where changes in results are more likely because of the tuner than something else.
As a note of interest, Bryan Litz tested .22LR with tuners and reported his findings in his recent book Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting, Volume III. He tested a CZ 457 with a custom barrel and shot SK Long Range Match ammo. While he didn't appear to appreciate the shortcomings of his tuner testing methodology, he found no improvement with the use of a tuner. (Of course that's not to say that tuners don't work; rather they don't work as easily as some might suggest.)
For more details on Litz's results, see https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/litz-says-no-evidence-for-tuners.2363129/
That didn't take long...
Maybe, just maybe, some shooters should try another approach and it might lead them to better results or to a wider understanding????. There are no shortage of LR rimfire PRS shooter that follow the process I have outlined and doing just fine. If you are going to shoot far, test far... may as well know the good, bad and ugly right now.
And I don't see how shooting at 200yds is any harder then 50yds... the rifle and bullet certainly don't care...and you were watching conditions right????
To hit the point home, figure out how CRAPPY your ammo is and you are going to be a whole lot happier and learn a whole lot faster... and that tuner is going to make a whole lot more sense.
But the same old arguments will go round and round, and this topic will pop up again later in the season and same discussion will happen and the same narratives will happen..... It is really is as simple as I have described.
YMMV
Enjoy
Jerry
Maybe, just maybe, some shooters should try another approach and it might lead them to better results or to a wider understanding????. There are no shortage of LR rimfire PRS shooter that follow the process I have outlined and doing just fine. If you are going to shoot far, test far... may as well know the good, bad and ugly right now.
And I don't see how shooting at 200yds is any harder then 50yds... the rifle and bullet certainly don't care...and you were watching conditions right????
To hit the point home, figure out how CRAPPY your ammo is and you are going to be a whole lot happier and learn a whole lot faster... and that tuner is going to make a whole lot more sense.
But the same old arguments will go round and round, and this topic will pop up again later in the season and same discussion will happen and the same narratives will happen..... It is really is as simple as I have described.
YMMV
Enjoy
Jerry
Jerry, it is surprising how often you give bad advice about shooting rimfire. Considering your pecuniary interest in the subject it's more surprising that you continue to do so. To be generous, perhaps it's because you are unaware that you know much less than you would like readers to believe.
Perhaps you've been convinced of your views by some of the many youtube videos that purport to show what you may repeat. Everyone should avoid the pitfalls of believing too much about what they see in many videos.
More specifically, the recommendation to try another approach, namely doing tuner testing at longer distances, is profoundly short sighted. It's not a bad idea simply because it's another approach. It's a bad idea because it's not reliable.
There's a very practical reason why finding a tuner setting at long distance isn't recommended by tuner makers. The greater the distance the less certain a shooter can be about whether the results on target are the result of changing tuner settings or something else, including ammo variation, wind, shooter error.
In short, recommending tuner testing at long distances (and in the wind as you suggest) is bound to lead to frustration and inconclusive results.
Anyone who agrees with Jerry that rimfire tuner testing at long distances is a good recommendation is encouraged to offer him support.
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Hear me out.... What if Bench rest and PRS was totally different.......So what works for one may not work for the other. So Jerry could be right and his testing showed it worked great at longer than 100 yards, off a bipod or bag. So how can one disprove another for an application that the other doesn't do ?
Actually Jerry, it was 2 hours and 53 minutes. Im a believer in tuners but agree with both you and Glenn in certain aspects. I believe a tuner can help even poorer quality ammo achieve better results. No it wont shoot better than quality ammo but better than whats achieved without the tuner. It wont make a poor barrel or badly fitted action a bench gun.It wont get rid of the flyers but I believe the end result will be smaller average groups. If you believe in what your doing it will help you shoot better. If your constantly questioning and wondering youll drive yourself mad. Compromise in the middle is the sweet spot. My semi comp gun has a Heathen brake and tuner and it just simply works. Its not ever coming off that gun. Lots of members on here have seen it shoot or shot it and its truly an amazing gun. My new Vudoo doesnt wear one at present but its the most accurate rimfire Ive ever owned and there have been hundreds. I shot 15 rounds at 100 yards yesterday with a lot of Lapua Long Range that measured 0.615" and then fired the remaining five rounds into 0.351". Unfortunately I had only brought a part box but rest assured Ill be testing this lot again. Valid discussion and ideas from different perspectives isnt a bad thing and in the end broadens our knowledge.
Tuners either work the same way in different disciplines or they don't work at all. The barrel/tuner/ammo don't "know" whether the shooting is BR or PRS.
In any case, everyone should remember that tuners don't make a dramatic difference at any distance. At 50 yards careful and repeated testing is required to determine that a tuner is properly set and will produce repeatable results. Shooting at 200 will require even more careful testing.
There's not much if any reliable information published either on line or in print that shows how effective tuners are at long distances such as 200 yards. The simple reason for this is that testing at such a distance is very challenging and not easily achieved.
Some posts just make me smile... discount what you have not done yourself. It really isn't a scary thing to put up a target at 100yds and beyond and shoot at it. I know you will learn a lot. If 200yds is scary, I will not bother to tell how far my testing has gone... with and without a tuner. Those that compete in CRPS understand how far we have had to shoot in competition in years past... in gale like conditions.
Those that I compete with have seen the results of my setups downrange in competition. Scores don't lie...
and I think I have explained my process clearly enough so anyone can try it for themself.
LS, I would love to never have to bother with a tuner. One more step of testing, more ammo used up... especially when a good lot is in limited supply... but this is rimfire. Taken this year off from PRS and doing some ELR shooting instead.
2600yds so far... will try for 2700 Thursday weather permitting. and no, I am not shooting a rimfire
Jerry
Those that I compete with have seen the results of my setups downrange in competition. Scores don't lie...
and I think I have explained my process clearly enough so anyone can try it for themself.
LS, I would love to never have to bother with a tuner. One more step of testing, more ammo used up... especially when a good lot is in limited supply... but this is rimfire. Taken this year off from PRS and doing some ELR shooting instead.
2600yds so far... will try for 2700 Thursday weather permitting. and no, I am not shooting a rimfire
Jerry
Let's not confuse the poor guy... there are lots of things that are different in different shooting disciplines
Especially in a rimfire world beyond 50yds
Jerry
Jerry, it's a good thing you can smile.
What's not good is when you recommend to shooters new to tuners that they ought to begin tuner testing at 200 yards. That's not only bad advice, it's dumb.
