RN bullets in heavy recoil rifles with tube magazines

[Sharps '63]

Mike Venturino quoted a US Army trial where the Marlin 1881 lever action rifle in 45-70 blew up - detonations in the mag tube with the Gov't 500 gr RN bullet. Subsequently Ideal (now Lyman) came out with the 457193 RNFP 420 gr bullet for these rifles, even designating their use for Marlins.

CAS people shoot a lot of RN bullets from pistol calibre rifles - but with powder puff loads, not heavy recoiling rifles like the 45-70.

I can work 457125's through the action of my Browning '86, and they are NOT powder puff loads. In the past I single loaded them, but by seating the bullet to cover the front driving band, they work from the mag tube. I haven't fired any from the mag tube to date.

Now I'm wondering if that is a good idea ..... what say you?

 

[Ganderite]

You can load two rounds, without concern. 1 in chamber, 1 in mag.

99.99% of hunting situations that is more than enough ammo.

I have used a lot of pointed ammo in tube mags. I take a side cutter and clip the bullet soft point, and then use a file to trim the tip flat, making sire the diameter of tip is wider than the primer.

With a round nose bullet, you can take a file and make a small flat on the tip.

And don't use a Federal primer...

 

[Sharps '63]

Good points, Ganderite!

I cast the Lyman 457193 RNFP, so I'm covered. Came as a surprise to me to read about the 45-70 blow ups in the Marlin '81. Good to learn something on the shortest day of the year. The good news is that from here on, the days get longer .....

 

[fingers284]

The Brophy bible has the entire "stop order" report you speak of in it. There was actually two incidents (if I remember correctly one Marlin and one Winchester) of magazine AD's in U.S. Army trials in the time frame. At the time, the Army disallowed any tube fed lever guns in any tests after that. No Lever guns were allowed or considered again until the 95 Winchester (with it's box magazine) was submitted.

Personally, because of an incident that I witnessed the aftermath of years ago, I wont even allow a RN in a my pistol cal levers let alone a higher recoiling gun.

The incident I refer to happened back in the 70's or early 80's. My dad and I were deer hunting north west of the small hamlet of Tee's Ab. We drove over a hill and the road was full of flashing lights, county cops, fish cops and RC's. Things like that are uncommon in our neck of the woods so we pulled up to enquire the cause. They were bringing a hunter out of the bush (local news later reported a young man from Red Deer with two young daughters was killed in a hunting accident). The only info we got in words from an RC on the road was "that he bled out in the bush when his 30-30 blew up" which could mean a number of things, but the clincher for me was a second RC carried the lever gun out of the bush and crossed the road right in front of us and it was very evident that the magazine was very much destroyed, virtually no fore end wood left on the gun, what was left of the wood was in his other hand. I didn't get to have a real up close look at the gun but both the old man nor I could see any damage to it other than the magazine.

As well and tho it's not a recoil induced problem , it sort of fits in here. It is well documented on the CAS/SASS forums that people have released the spring loaded followers on the 1860 Henrys and having chain reaction detonations in the magazines loaded with RN bullets . I believe at one time the SASS governors were asked to rule on a ban of Henry rifles from competition. It didn't pass as it was ruled not an equipment issue but more operator error...however lots of discussion after that, that it was a political decision arrived at because the only US importer of the model1860 at the time was a member of the SASS Wild Bunch (board of directors).

 

[Sharps '63]

I am a CAS competitor and I own a Henry in 44-40. I have been present twice when Henry's have detonated three rds in the mag tube. In the first case, I had just finished supervising the shooter at the loading table. He loaded 10 rds, slapped the nose cap shut as he put the rifle down - "Bang!", and his wrist was shot full of fragments. Didn't do much for the rifle either.

In the second case, the shooter was kneeling and dropped five rds into the mag tube, then slapped the nose cap shut - "Bang!" This time the blast went safely down range.

In both cases, RNFP bullets were used and there were no high primers in the remaining ammo. Historically, the Henry was known to do this with RF ammo as well.

The Henry is a fun, accurate rife, but it is not forgiving if you make this mistake.

As well and tho it's not a recoil induced problem , it sort of fits in here. It is well documented on the CAS/SASS forums that people have released the spring loaded followers on the 1860 Henrys and having chain reaction detonations in the magazines loaded with RN bullets . I believe at one time the SASS governors were asked to rule on a ban of Henry rifles from competition. It didn't pass as it was ruled not an equipment issue but more operator error...however lots of discussion after that, that it was a political decision arrived at because the only US importer of the model1860 at the time was a member of the SASS Wild Bunch (board of directors).

 

[fingers284]

Also has happened when the finger tab on the follower catches on the loading table edge and when the gun is pulled away ''Bang" happens as well. I have almost bought one a few time and then give my head a shake...just too many opportunities for me to screw up when hurrying with the mag follower and the fact that they don't have a trigger block as the 73's do. If there's going to be an "out of battery AD" on the line, it will be with a Henry or 66 when someone is in the rock& roll zone.