Robust 1911s?

Which 1911 manufacturer produces the most robust frames and slides?

  • Smith & Wesson

    Votes: 4 3.6%

  • Sig Sauer

    Votes: 11 10.0%

  • Ruger

    Votes: 9 8.2%

  • Remington

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • SAM

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • Colt

    Votes: 27 24.5%

  • Norinco

    Votes: 33 30.0%

  • Kimber

    Votes: 4 3.6%

  • RIA

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • SVI

    Votes: 19 17.3%
  • Total voters
    110
Melnibonean

Melnibonean

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Which brand do you think produces the most robust 1911s out there, in terms of being able to handle "hot" or +P loads repeatedly without frame or slide damage?

**** NOTE: It should read "STI", not "SVI". Any vote for "SVI" will be deemed to be a vote for "STI" ****
 
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wow. seeing votes for norinco. wondering if that is because it is the only 1911 those particular raters have used or if they are actually considered very durable. and no slight to the norinco intended. I'm sure they are a good pistol, particularly for the money, just curious if they are really more robust compared to others.
 
Although Norinco may well have the hardest steel out there, the fit is so spotty in quality that I think damage to the frame (link pins, etc.) is quite likely under repeated hard use. A 1911 needs to be properly fit to take the battering that hot loads can subject it to, and that goes beyond the simple hardness of the material. Length of the link pin, accuracy of holes drilled into the frame and other quality control issues are equally important to ensure that parts aren't subjected to excess stresses.
 
No one could take this post seriously if the Norinco is added to the list. It's like saying that a Chinese SKS is as good as a M416. Quite ridiculous.
 
I would have to disagree. The question wasn't if the brands are as good overall comparatively speaking, but which one can handle repeated firing of hotter ammo.

Just like the Ruger framed revolvers are generally considered to be more robust than the S&W ones and more able to handle stout loads, that does not take away from the fact that S&W makes some fine pieces with amazing triggers and fit and finish. But "Ruger" would be the answer if the same question was poised about wheel guns (in .357 or .44mag)
 
How many 1911's period have you seen with the frame or slide shot out on? The answer is going to be very close to zero. Theres always going to be defects or exceptions but the .45 acp is a relatively low velocity cartridge, and the slide velocity on a 1911 isnt that fast when springed properly. Couple that with a steel frame and slide and I doubt any 1911 frame or slide has issue handling hot ammo. In the competition world you see 2011's with high round counts (25-50k) regularly and other than say barrel and small part replacement the slides and frames hold up just fine. Obviously the slide to frame fit may not stay super tight forever but thats been proven to have little effect on overall perforamnce. And thats not to mention that if you were ever going to shoot one enough to wear out or break the slide and frame, you would have already spent 4 or 5 times the price of the gun on the ammo to do so, so replacing it once its worn out shouldn't be an issue :)
 
If the ONLY concern is the steel, some Norincos are tough as nails. Tougher than Colt steel? That I'm not sure about. Tougher than Springfield or Caspian (or Ruger for obvious reasons), yes, probably.

There is a reason that the big 1911 smiths have a short list of frames they'll build on. There's a very small amount of variation in what frames will be accepted, but the name at the top of the list is always the same: Colt. Colt steel is very, very good.

That's a pretty small part of what makes a 1911 good, though. Frame geometry is a lot more important than the steel. Are you better off with a Norinco or a Springfield TRP? Definitely the Springfield.


Also, any 1911 will get wrecked if you use cheap or worn-out springs. And Norinco springs really can't be trusted. If you keep up on the spring maintenance, even a cast-framed Springfield GI should run for 50,000 rounds. The ability of the gun to handle +P really relates to spring selection more than anything else. If you make bad decisions about the springs, the gun will break.

Furthermore the first place you're likely to see failure from hot loads is not the frame or slide, it's the barrel link and slide stop. And it'll shut the gun down. So a gun with quality small parts will run longer with hard use than a gun with cheap small parts.


If you factor in the quality of the machining in addition to the steel, and the small parts, and barrel fit (which also plays a significant role in 1911 longevity) there's pretty much only one answer, and it's the only company that actually has the plans: Colt. Everybody else - EVERYBODY - is using reverse-engineered geometry based on the Colt. Some do it well and some poorly, but Colt has the plans AND they do it well, in very high-quality steel.
 
EdGCNM said:
Although Norinco may well have the hardest steel out there, the fit is so spotty in quality that I think damage to the frame (link pins, etc.) is quite likely under repeated hard use. A 1911 needs to be properly fit to take the battering that hot loads can subject it to, and that goes beyond the simple hardness of the material. Length of the link pin, accuracy of holes drilled into the frame and other quality control issues are equally important to ensure that parts aren't subjected to excess stresses.
Click to expand...

I've seen one Norinco 1911 on which the slide stop was cutting into the slide. I would be very careful while trying to place Norinco 1911 with its non-existant QC and spotty steel heat treatment in the same league with quality makers.
 
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Exactly.
how someone would even consider to compare a norinco against any other quality maker, I simply cannot understand.

I get it, the norc is probably a lot of people first gun, you think you are getting value but you are not. Like anything in life, good quality goes along with a higher price tag, sorry, you cannot compare orange to apples.

If the norc is the only thing you have, it shoots yes, I am glad you like it good for you, but please don't compare it against a kimber, a colt, smith and wesson and the list goes on. It is simply ridiculous and a non-sense discussion.
It seems like some people needs to convince themselves that they did the right thing while everybody else is just simply feeding the pigs if you choose to spend more money into something nicer? is that what it is?

Threads like these, make me cringe. Sorry for the rant.
 
They are not saying the Norc's are "better quality" than the big name brands. Its the tool grade steel frames and slides they are saying are better, other than that they are a budget pistol to tinker with. Wilson combat had a list of 4 frames they would do custom work on years ago....#1 was Colt, #2 was Norinco, #3 was Caspian, and the last was Springfield I think. Its wonderful to be able to buy a $1500 pistol, but if I am going to tinker and do a build its not going to be on a kimber, or a colt, or an STI....Its going to be on a cheap Norc, S.A.M, or R.I.A so I get a good base and I can upgrade pretty much everything else to what I want....its fun to tinker.
 
Avenida said:
Exactly.
how someone would even consider to compare a norinco against any other quality maker, I simply cannot understand.

I get it, the norc is probably a lot of people first gun, you think you are getting value but you are not. Like anything in life, good quality goes along with a higher price tag, sorry, you cannot compare orange to apples.

If the norc is the only thing you have, it shoots yes, I am glad you like it good for you, but please don't compare it against a kimber, a colt, smith and wesson and the list goes on. It is simply ridiculous and a non-sense discussion.
It seems like some people needs to convince themselves that they did the right thing while everybody else is just simply feeding the pigs if you choose to spend more money into something nicer? is that what it is?

Threads like these, make me cringe. Sorry for the rant.
Click to expand...

If it can handle SAAMI pressures of 4,890,000 (sic) which would propel a 230gr slug so fast that it would achieve escape velocity out of the Earth's gravitational field, and do so without cracking or breaking anything, then know what? It won this game.

Does it change the fact that it might be ugly and not well put together? Absolutely not. But I'm sure there's another poll somewhere asking what the prettiest/best quality/nicest smelling 1911 is somewhere on this board. This, however, isn't it.

Try and see this thread for what it is, rather than for what it's not.
 
misanthropist said:
If the ONLY concern is the steel, some Norincos are tough as nails. Tougher than Colt steel? That I'm not sure about. Tougher than Springfield or Caspian (or Ruger for obvious reasons), yes, probably.

There is a reason that the big 1911 smiths have a short list of frames they'll build on. There's a very small amount of variation in what frames will be accepted, but the name at the top of the list is always the same: Colt. Colt steel is very, very good.

That's a pretty small part of what makes a 1911 good, though. Frame geometry is a lot more important than the steel. Are you better off with a Norinco or a Springfield TRP? Definitely the Springfield.


Also, any 1911 will get wrecked if you use cheap or worn-out springs. And Norinco springs really can't be trusted. If you keep up on the spring maintenance, even a cast-framed Springfield GI should run for 50,000 rounds. The ability of the gun to handle +P really relates to spring selection more than anything else. If you make bad decisions about the springs, the gun will break.

Furthermore the first place you're likely to see failure from hot loads is not the frame or slide, it's the barrel link and slide stop. And it'll shut the gun down. So a gun with quality small parts will run longer with hard use than a gun with cheap small parts.


If you factor in the quality of the machining in addition to the steel, and the small parts, and barrel fit (which also plays a significant role in 1911 longevity) there's pretty much only one answer, and it's the only company that actually has the plans: Colt. Everybody else - EVERYBODY - is using reverse-engineered geometry based on the Colt. Some do it well and some poorly, but Colt has the plans AND they do it well, in very high-quality steel.
Click to expand...

Is that why Colt based it's Delta Elite on the same 1911 frame then? Because the metal and geometry of the design could take the pressures of "normal" 10mm rounds?

...and thanks for the lesson!
 
misanthropist said:
If the ONLY concern is the steel, some Norincos are tough as nails. Tougher than Colt steel? That I'm not sure about. Tougher than Springfield or Caspian (or Ruger for obvious reasons), yes, probably.

There is a reason that the big 1911 smiths have a short list of frames they'll build on. There's a very small amount of variation in what frames will be accepted, but the name at the top of the list is always the same: Colt. Colt steel is very, very good.

That's a pretty small part of what makes a 1911 good, though. Frame geometry is a lot more important than the steel. Are you better off with a Norinco or a Springfield TRP? Definitely the Springfield.


Also, any 1911 will get wrecked if you use cheap or worn-out springs. And Norinco springs really can't be trusted. If you keep up on the spring maintenance, even a cast-framed Springfield GI should run for 50,000 rounds. The ability of the gun to handle +P really relates to spring selection more than anything else. If you make bad decisions about the springs, the gun will break.

Furthermore the first place you're likely to see failure from hot loads is not the frame or slide, it's the barrel link and slide stop. And it'll shut the gun down. So a gun with quality small parts will run longer with hard use than a gun with cheap small parts.


If you factor in the quality of the machining in addition to the steel, and the small parts, and barrel fit (which also plays a significant role in 1911 longevity) there's pretty much only one answer, and it's the only company that actually has the plans: Colt. Everybody else - EVERYBODY - is using reverse-engineered geometry based on the Colt. Some do it well and some poorly, but Colt has the plans AND they do it well, in very high-quality steel.
Click to expand...

Springfield GI is not cast. Frame and slide are forged and of good quality, I'm not sure about the barrel though, but I'm pretty much sure it's a two piece design. It's much better choice for custom build than any Norinco out there.
 
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