Ross MkII** Dating Help!!

Sharps45-70

Sharps45-70

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Hi everyone, I just picked up a civilian/commercial Ross MkII** target rifle. Serial number 1888 with a 2 underneath. The 1 could be an “I” or “L” but is a little faint. What is the date of this? I know they changed the bore sizes around from .308 to .311 and I don’t have a way to slug my bore. I looked in the Ross Rifle Story but the serial number doesn’t seem to be listed.
 
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As I understand it, a "2" stamped on the underside of the barrel reinforce indicates the barrel was replaced at the factory (2nd barrel). I have one so-marked Mk II** with a pristine bore. The "2" under the s/n may have the same meaning. How is the bore? I would be quite certain the s/n is 1888. I don't believe alpha characters were used commercial serial numbers.
 
I do not know if there is a listing of Ross commercial serial numbers with dates. The rifles did evolve over time, so it should be possible to classify a rifle as earlier or later.
For example, my II** never had a sight on the barrel, has a BSA Martin rear sight mounted on the receiver, and a .303 bore. I would consider it to be later production.
The II** Wanstalls just sold had a rear sight mounted using a strap which engaged the rear stock reinforcing screw; I expect it would be earlier than mine. Although because it had a solid handguard, and no barrel mounted sight, I doubt that it would be an early II**.
 
Gairlochian, not sure what you want for measurements.

This is the Ross off Wanstalls, I picked it up as soon as I can knowing what it was. It has the later one piece handguard and never had a barrel sight. From the Ross Rifle Story, the rear sights you could choose when ordering, and this person selected the Canada Tool & Specialty Co. sight with a windage adjustable base. I have also heard the 2 may denote the second rifle in a shooting team, but who knows. It "will" take a bayonet, but it is the short style stock without an extended lug so in reality it won't. The whole rifle is pristine so the excellent bore wouldn't surprise me, and to be honest would be shocked if it is rebarreled.
 
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I used a caliper and very carefully measured the muzzle. The largest reading I got was .310, so I assume it is in fact a ".311" bore. That would take into account I can not get a perfect measurement with flat arms on the caliper in a round bore. My new issue is the sizing of brass (see other thread) where my Lee dies don't size close enough to the rim for them to chamber in this rifle. Not sure how I can get them sized closer to the rim.
 
There is an extensive database of commercial Ross serial numbers in the Sporters section on the Ross Rifle Forum. Given that the current highest recorded # for a Mk II** is 9571, I would think 1888 to be relatively early production. There are no serial numbers containing alpha characters.
 
B_noser said:
There is an extensive database of commercial Ross serial numbers in the Sporters section on the Ross Rifle Forum. Given that the current highest recorded # for a Mk II** is 9571, I would think 1888 to be relatively early production. There are no serial numbers containing alpha characters.
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I have emailed the admin there multiple times but cannot access or sign up for an account on that forum. First place I tried after so many people have recommended it. Webpage keeps telling me the registration function is disabled.
 
I have 1988 and it was the earliest 2* in the sporting rifle registry (within which they were numbered) with" proved 27 (not 28) tons) until yours now. It is definitely and early version as yours should be. Do all the mating numbers match up as it SHOULD be the earliest.
I will follow up with a PM on the sight.
OGC
 
Oldguncrank said:
I have 1988 and it was the earliest 2* in the sporting rifle registry (within which they were numbered) with" proved 27 (not 28) tons) until yours now. It is definitely and early version as yours should be. Do all the mating numbers match up as it SHOULD be the earliest.
I will follow up with a PM on the sight.
OGC
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That is what I thought as well, but it has the later hand guard and this barrel never had a barrel sight, but it could have been rebarelled as I know this was a common service they performed. The top handguard is a perfect wood match however, so not sure. As they say Sir Ross never made two rifles alike!

As a side-note, I mic’ed the bore and it came out to .310 as my highest reading. Close enough to .312 as it accounts for using flat calipers in a round bore.
 
Again, do the mating numbers match.
Even if they do are the m/numbers of the same size and font. They are usually smaller than the serials.
OGC
 
Just looked at 1988 again and the barrel reinforce is marked "24 tons Canadian Proof" and the mating numbers (41) are stamped in small print on the TOP of said reinforce and immediately opposite the same number on the breech and then halfway down the bolt. All 2*s were mating numbered as they were hand fitted.
OGC
 
The 2 under the serial # definitely indicates your rifle was re-barreled.

Being a very early Civilian Mk II** it was probably made about 1908.
 
As others have stated, the 2 under the serial number indicates a factory rebarrel. If you carefully remove the middle barrel band and pop off the top wood, you will find that the upper inner surface of your lower stock has two cuts in it for the spring clamps of the original two piece topwood. I have or have had 3 such renumbered rifles over the years--all have the later one piece topwood and all were originally early two piece with barrel mounted sights. When these went back for rebarreling, likely around 1912 or so, the Mk II** had been changed to the single topwood with no barrel sight, and that was what was installed. I would bet that your topwood doesn't quite match the bottom stock as perfectly as most Rosses do, again because it is a later match. What receiver sight is mounted?

Ed
 
boltaction said:
As others have stated, the 2 under the serial number indicates a factory rebarrel. If you carefully remove the middle barrel band and pop off the top wood, you will find that the upper inner surface of your lower stock has two cuts in it for the spring clamps of the original two piece topwood. I have or have had 3 such renumbered rifles over the years--all have the later one piece topwood and all were originally early two piece with barrel mounted sights. When these went back for rebarreling, likely around 1912 or so, the Mk II** had been changed to the single topwood with no barrel sight, and that was what was installed. I would bet that your topwood doesn't quite match the bottom stock as perfectly as most Rosses do, again because it is a later match. What receiver sight is mounted?

Ed
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Hi Ed, thanks for the super-informative post. That solves a lot of questions about the rifle that the RRS didn't help answering. I have some clues from other members but differing opinions. This makes sense and straightens it out. The rifle wears a Canada Tools & Specialty Co. rear sight. I assume the new barrels were serial numbered with the original serial number?
 
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