Ross ####-Please add your pics!
- Thread starter cantom
- Start date
No Huot LMG's?
Considering that only a few prototypes were ever made (I only found documentation of ONE complete, working Huot making it overseas that was subsequently mostly worn out in trials) - I have to imagine nobody here has one
That being said, the trials said it was a soundly superior weapon over the Lewis and could be made from standard Ross MkIII rifles, sharing many parts. Also, not counting the cost of the scrapped Ross, it cost $50 (in 1917 money) to manufacture compared to $1000 for the inferior Lewis gun.
The end of the war halted its nearly certain adoption, however.
Considering that only a few prototypes were ever made (I only found documentation of ONE complete, working Huot making it overseas that was subsequently mostly worn out in trials) - I have to imagine nobody here has one
That being said, the trials said it was a soundly superior weapon over the Lewis and could be made from standard Ross MkIII rifles, sharing many parts. Also, not counting the cost of the scrapped Ross, it cost $50 (in 1917 money) to manufacture compared to $1000 for the inferior Lewis gun.
The end of the war halted its nearly certain adoption, however.
Is there a link to a writeup about it?
I have been trying to figure out why the Ross was issued with such a strange bayonet. I noticed that the US Krag has a remarkably similar looking one to the Ross bayonet. It is a bit closer to the Ross once the Ross had been modified for WW1 but still quite similar.
I can understand why Ross lovers are not fans of the bayonet. Sticking a half pound of french canadian butcher knife on the end of a superbly accurate rifles barrel must feel like abuse
I can understand why Ross lovers are not fans of the bayonet. Sticking a half pound of french canadian butcher knife on the end of a superbly accurate rifles barrel must feel like abuse
abuse...
Abuse on the range for precision shots...maybe!, but on the battlefield for live mean targetS within a few meters,...not a problem I am sure...no more that the super long LE nu,1 bayonet used in WWI and WWII...Did not know the Ross bayo inventor was a french Canadian...learn new things every day or do we!?
I have been trying to figure out why the Ross was issued with such a strange bayonet. I noticed that the US Krag has a remarkably similar looking one to the Ross bayonet. It is a bit closer to the Ross once the Ross had been modified for WW1 but still quite similar.
I can understand why Ross lovers are not fans of the bayonet. Sticking a half pound of french canadian butcher knife on the end of a superbly accurate rifles barrel must feel like abuse
Abuse on the range for precision shots...maybe!, but on the battlefield for live mean targetS within a few meters,...not a problem I am sure...no more that the super long LE nu,1 bayonet used in WWI and WWII...Did not know the Ross bayo inventor was a french Canadian...learn new things every day or do we!?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huot_automatic_rifle
http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/publications/currie/excerpt.pdf WW1 trench diary mentioning the Huot.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/8624...iets+&+Olympics;++2.+Huot+Automatic+Rifle
http://www.network54.com/Forum/8624/message/986598892/canadian+ross+rifle+issue+in+ww2 - and some fun ross tidbits
I suspect this is one rifle that isn't on the cfc ban list... make it semi and we have an amazing purpose for all those cut down rosses!
Ok.... um... our legislation does mention the Huot!!! http://www.geocities.com/akimoya/prohibited.magazines.html
Also - note the magazine capacity exemptions for a lot of WW1 guns... interesting...
Anyone know where to dig up some pics?
Last edited:
Sorry Jaquest I don't know if the inventor of the bayo was a French canadian but the steel it was made from is.
I don't think the bayo would have a huge difference in accuracy but these guys love their Rosses so much and I have yet to see a single one with a bayonet attached that I they may not like the looks of the big butcher knife on the end of their baby.
I would guess that the bayonet attached would alter the point of aim but then the shots would be fairly consistent. G&A did a test but no Rosses. The Enfield did the best with the huge 1907 making not the slightest bit of difference.
I don't think the bayo would have a huge difference in accuracy but these guys love their Rosses so much and I have yet to see a single one with a bayonet attached that I they may not like the looks of the big butcher knife on the end of their baby.
I would guess that the bayonet attached would alter the point of aim but then the shots would be fairly consistent. G&A did a test but no Rosses. The Enfield did the best with the huge 1907 making not the slightest bit of difference.
We've heard that the No 4 with the two position Mk II flip sight was sighted in to utilize a fixed spike bayonet with the 300 yard aperture. I wonder if the Ross was sighted with bayonet fixed as well?
PerversPépère
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Shawinigan (Quebec)
History...
I think you were misled: They first fabricated that trench butcher knife for the French-Canadian troops use then tried to design a rifle to attach to it...
PP.
Sticking a half pound of french canadian butcher knife on the end of a superbly accurate rifles barrel must feel like abuse
I think you were misled: They first fabricated that trench butcher knife for the French-Canadian troops use then tried to design a rifle to attach to it...
PP.
Hi-Standard
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Newfoundland
Here's my M-10. It's got GWVA burned into the stock. Great War Veterans Association maybe?
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
Enjoyed seeing this again! Any chance of making it a "Sticky"?
Some period photos showing Ross rifles used by Eastern Ontario's 21st Battalion C.E.F.---1915-1916.
(Photos are from the Battalion web site.)
The 21st Battalion specialists/snipers, equiped with Mark III Ross rifles fitted with Warner & Swasey scopes.
Other photos showing the Ross rifle.
I recently purchased the book shown below written by Stephen Nichol about the 21st Battalion because my wife's grandfather was the commanding officer of the 21st.
Lt. Col. Elmer Watson Jones was wounded at Vimy and was killed on August 8th 1918 ..the first day of the Battle of Amiens. By that time he had received the DSO & bar.
Lt.-Col. Elmer Watson Jones shown with my wife's mother in England before his death on August 8th 1918.
Stephen has managed to put together so many anecdotes in his writing of this book that it makes for a very interesting and colourful read.
One of many stories in Stephen Nichol’s book.
Lieut. Donald Goudy remembered being introduced to the grim business of sniping during this period in the line.
(Nov 28th 1916- Chapter 12- The Raid On the Burning Byng.)
“As Scout Officer I was anxious to see how the snipers actually worked. I asked Peter Comego, one of our Indian snipers, to let me know when he had a likely prospect lined up.
Peter sent word that a German was about ready for him to go to work on. I hotfooted it up to where Pete had a front line observation post with a sandbag as camouflage. While I held a telescope on the German. Pete drew a bead on him with his telescopic sights.
Apparently, the Hun was a young chap. Innocently unaware that he was under the eyes of one of the deadliest snipers in the Canadian army he walked back and forth in his own front trench probably unaware that there was also a low spot in the parapet. Pete waited until he stopped and stood peering out into No Man’s Land and then said to me “I guess he’s about right now”.
His rifle cracked. The German gave a convulsive start, stood still for a moment and then slowly slid down out of sight. I shuddered. “That’s not a nice thing to watch,” I said. “I don’t like killing a man in such a cold-blooded way myself” said Pete. “But this is war and we wouldn’t be here if the Germans hadn’t started it”.
Snipers were a constant threat to men on both sides of the trenches and one had to be constantly mindful that a moment’s neglect of that fact could cost your life. Putting your head over the top of a trench in the wrong spot for more than an instant could be fatal.
Sniper Scott Montgomery recalled passing a couple of men standing up in the trench who were having great fun shooting at something. When asked what they were shooting at one of them replied that it was a German hosepipe. The Germans were pumping out one of their trenches and had thrown the pipe over the top to drain the water away. Shooting holes in the pipe meant that as the pump was working water squirted all over the place. Montgomery warned them that they were asking for trouble but they took no notice and continued their game. When he came back later there was only one of them. When asked what had happened the reply was that as his mate was shooting at the pipe a German sniper had shot him clean through the forehead.
Snipers were merciless and faceless, and enemy snipers were universally hated. Even snipers within the men’s own unit were held in mixed esteem. Art Cousins had this recollection.
“I don’t really think we hated people enough to go out and kill them you know. I think we only had one or two fellows like that. We had a couple of Indians with us who were snipers and who loved knocking off fellows who were walking about but I don’t think any of the other fellows would. The Indians didn’t seem to mind it at all.”
---------------------
The references to the snipers and different specific events provide a sense of how that world was....as well as numerous references to the questionable reliability of the Ross rifle using less than precise ammunition that this gun seemed to require.
Steve's book.
Full of interesting personal anectdotes...the stories behind the events that are not often told.
At the time of Lt.-Col. Jones's death on August 8th 1918...the first day of the Battle of Amiens,
the 122 FÜSILIER REGIMENT 4th WURTTEMBERG was in action in the area on August 10th 1918
at Morlancourt.
This Wurttemberg unit marked pistol was brought back after the war by a Canadian soldier....was it picked up at that time ...I am sure I don't know?
Unit markings on this 1917 dated, DWM manufactured Artillery Luger:
122 FÜSILIER REGIMENT (4.WURTTEMBERG) (122.R.4.6.)----6th weapon.
The additional firepower of the snail drum magazine was originally designed to assist in trench attacks.
Matching magazine.
This holster originally came with this artillery Luger......
does the photo below show a repaired bullet hole that also grazed the stock....
I am sure I don't know?
If that was the case it must have been uncomfortable for the fellow that was wearing it!
Marcelcave was where Jones was killed on August 8th 1918...Longeau was where he was buried....Morlancourt was where the 122nd Regiment 4th Wurttemberg was operating on August 10th 1918.
Period photos of their guys.
Period photos of our guys.
Longueau British Cemetery was begun in April 1918, when the Allied line was re-established before Amiens; it was used by fighting units and field ambulances until the following August. Plot IV was made after the Armistice when graves were brought in from the surrounding battlefields.
Casualty Details: UK 74, Canada 65, Australia 65, Total Burials: 204
A commentary regarding the Battle of Amiens.
The operation of the British Army, and particularly the part taken by the Canadian Corps in front of Amiens on the 8th of August and succeeding days, was considered of the utmost importance, and the great success attained brought forth numerous letters of congratulation. The Corps Commander was personally congratulated by the Commander-in-Chief, Sir Douglas Haig, and also by the Commander of the FOURTH ARMY, Sir Henry Rawlinson.
The following Special Order gives one some idea of the far reaching results of this glorious offensive, and the Corps Commander’s own appreciation of his incomparable troops.
SPECIAL ORDER
By Lieutenant-General Sir ARTHUR W. CURRIE, K.C.B., K.C.M.G.,
Commanding Canadian Corps.
(An extract.)
The first stage of this battle of Amiens is over, and one of the most successful operations conducted by the Allied Armies since the war began is now a matter of history.
The Canadian Corps has every right to feel more than proud of the part it played. To move the Corps from the ARRAS front and in less than a week and launch it in battle so many miles distant was in itself a splendid performance. Yet the splendour of that performance pales into insignificance when compared with what has been accomplished since zero hour on the 8th of August.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This account of the battle might be repeditive...sorry...!
On 8 August 1918 the Battle for Amiens (also known as the Third Battle of the Somme) commenced when a combined Australian, British and Canadian force attacked the Germans eastwards from Villers-Bretonneux. The offensive broke the German line so thoroughly that most of their field artillery was overrun and captured. The Allied troops advanced 10 kilometres on the first day of fighting which prompted Erich von Ludendorff to label it 'the black day of the German army'. By 11 August over 30,000 German prisoners had been captured.
At 04. 20 on August 8th 1918, the attack began. Troops from Canada, Australia and Britain advanced under a creeping barrage from 700 artillery guns that advanced 100 metres every three minutes. Heavy tanks were used to attack well-defended German positions while smaller tanks – ‘Whippets – were used to probe the German defences. Rawlinson had set a target of an eight-mile advance on Day 1 of the attack – what would have been the largest Allied advance if his plan was successful. Rawlinson was helped by the weather. Early morning fog helped to disguise what the Allies were doing.
As the Allies advanced, 600 aircraft from the RAF attacked German positions dropping phosphorous bombs.
The Canadian and Australian troops advanced five miles by midday. British troops in the hillier northern sector –where tanks found it more difficult to operate – fared worse but still advanced. Such was the success of the attack, Rawlinson felt confident enough to order 20,000 cavalry troops to advance. Cavalry had suffered very badly in the bogged down conditions of trench warfare but in this attack they took much land, though suffering heavy casualties.
The sheer intensity of the attack overwhelmed the Germans.
“The Germans were surrendering everywhere. We knew it was going to be the end of the war.” Major S Evers, Australian Corps.
The Germans lost more ground on August 8th than on any other day on the Western Front. By August 12th the battle had lost momentum but the damage suffered in the initial attack had been sufficient to critically damage the German Army. Ludendorff told Wilhelm II that the war was lost.
This led Erich Ludendorff to describe the first day of the battle as "the black day of the German Army." Amiens was one of the first major battles involving armoured warfare and marked the end of trench warfare on the Western Front; fighting becoming mobile once again until the armistice was signed on 11 November 1918.
David
(Photos are from the Battalion web site.)
The 21st Battalion specialists/snipers, equiped with Mark III Ross rifles fitted with Warner & Swasey scopes.
Other photos showing the Ross rifle.
I recently purchased the book shown below written by Stephen Nichol about the 21st Battalion because my wife's grandfather was the commanding officer of the 21st.
Lt. Col. Elmer Watson Jones was wounded at Vimy and was killed on August 8th 1918 ..the first day of the Battle of Amiens. By that time he had received the DSO & bar.
Lt.-Col. Elmer Watson Jones shown with my wife's mother in England before his death on August 8th 1918.
Stephen has managed to put together so many anecdotes in his writing of this book that it makes for a very interesting and colourful read.
One of many stories in Stephen Nichol’s book.
Lieut. Donald Goudy remembered being introduced to the grim business of sniping during this period in the line.
(Nov 28th 1916- Chapter 12- The Raid On the Burning Byng.)
“As Scout Officer I was anxious to see how the snipers actually worked. I asked Peter Comego, one of our Indian snipers, to let me know when he had a likely prospect lined up.
Peter sent word that a German was about ready for him to go to work on. I hotfooted it up to where Pete had a front line observation post with a sandbag as camouflage. While I held a telescope on the German. Pete drew a bead on him with his telescopic sights.
Apparently, the Hun was a young chap. Innocently unaware that he was under the eyes of one of the deadliest snipers in the Canadian army he walked back and forth in his own front trench probably unaware that there was also a low spot in the parapet. Pete waited until he stopped and stood peering out into No Man’s Land and then said to me “I guess he’s about right now”.
His rifle cracked. The German gave a convulsive start, stood still for a moment and then slowly slid down out of sight. I shuddered. “That’s not a nice thing to watch,” I said. “I don’t like killing a man in such a cold-blooded way myself” said Pete. “But this is war and we wouldn’t be here if the Germans hadn’t started it”.
Snipers were a constant threat to men on both sides of the trenches and one had to be constantly mindful that a moment’s neglect of that fact could cost your life. Putting your head over the top of a trench in the wrong spot for more than an instant could be fatal.
Sniper Scott Montgomery recalled passing a couple of men standing up in the trench who were having great fun shooting at something. When asked what they were shooting at one of them replied that it was a German hosepipe. The Germans were pumping out one of their trenches and had thrown the pipe over the top to drain the water away. Shooting holes in the pipe meant that as the pump was working water squirted all over the place. Montgomery warned them that they were asking for trouble but they took no notice and continued their game. When he came back later there was only one of them. When asked what had happened the reply was that as his mate was shooting at the pipe a German sniper had shot him clean through the forehead.
Snipers were merciless and faceless, and enemy snipers were universally hated. Even snipers within the men’s own unit were held in mixed esteem. Art Cousins had this recollection.
“I don’t really think we hated people enough to go out and kill them you know. I think we only had one or two fellows like that. We had a couple of Indians with us who were snipers and who loved knocking off fellows who were walking about but I don’t think any of the other fellows would. The Indians didn’t seem to mind it at all.”
---------------------
The references to the snipers and different specific events provide a sense of how that world was....as well as numerous references to the questionable reliability of the Ross rifle using less than precise ammunition that this gun seemed to require.
Steve's book.
Full of interesting personal anectdotes...the stories behind the events that are not often told.
At the time of Lt.-Col. Jones's death on August 8th 1918...the first day of the Battle of Amiens,
the 122 FÜSILIER REGIMENT 4th WURTTEMBERG was in action in the area on August 10th 1918
at Morlancourt.
This Wurttemberg unit marked pistol was brought back after the war by a Canadian soldier....was it picked up at that time ...I am sure I don't know?
Unit markings on this 1917 dated, DWM manufactured Artillery Luger:
122 FÜSILIER REGIMENT (4.WURTTEMBERG) (122.R.4.6.)----6th weapon.
The additional firepower of the snail drum magazine was originally designed to assist in trench attacks.
Matching magazine.
This holster originally came with this artillery Luger......
does the photo below show a repaired bullet hole that also grazed the stock....
I am sure I don't know?
If that was the case it must have been uncomfortable for the fellow that was wearing it!
Marcelcave was where Jones was killed on August 8th 1918...Longeau was where he was buried....Morlancourt was where the 122nd Regiment 4th Wurttemberg was operating on August 10th 1918.
Period photos of their guys.
Period photos of our guys.
Longueau British Cemetery was begun in April 1918, when the Allied line was re-established before Amiens; it was used by fighting units and field ambulances until the following August. Plot IV was made after the Armistice when graves were brought in from the surrounding battlefields.
Casualty Details: UK 74, Canada 65, Australia 65, Total Burials: 204
A commentary regarding the Battle of Amiens.
The operation of the British Army, and particularly the part taken by the Canadian Corps in front of Amiens on the 8th of August and succeeding days, was considered of the utmost importance, and the great success attained brought forth numerous letters of congratulation. The Corps Commander was personally congratulated by the Commander-in-Chief, Sir Douglas Haig, and also by the Commander of the FOURTH ARMY, Sir Henry Rawlinson.
The following Special Order gives one some idea of the far reaching results of this glorious offensive, and the Corps Commander’s own appreciation of his incomparable troops.
SPECIAL ORDER
By Lieutenant-General Sir ARTHUR W. CURRIE, K.C.B., K.C.M.G.,
Commanding Canadian Corps.
(An extract.)
The first stage of this battle of Amiens is over, and one of the most successful operations conducted by the Allied Armies since the war began is now a matter of history.
The Canadian Corps has every right to feel more than proud of the part it played. To move the Corps from the ARRAS front and in less than a week and launch it in battle so many miles distant was in itself a splendid performance. Yet the splendour of that performance pales into insignificance when compared with what has been accomplished since zero hour on the 8th of August.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This account of the battle might be repeditive...sorry...!
On 8 August 1918 the Battle for Amiens (also known as the Third Battle of the Somme) commenced when a combined Australian, British and Canadian force attacked the Germans eastwards from Villers-Bretonneux. The offensive broke the German line so thoroughly that most of their field artillery was overrun and captured. The Allied troops advanced 10 kilometres on the first day of fighting which prompted Erich von Ludendorff to label it 'the black day of the German army'. By 11 August over 30,000 German prisoners had been captured.
At 04. 20 on August 8th 1918, the attack began. Troops from Canada, Australia and Britain advanced under a creeping barrage from 700 artillery guns that advanced 100 metres every three minutes. Heavy tanks were used to attack well-defended German positions while smaller tanks – ‘Whippets – were used to probe the German defences. Rawlinson had set a target of an eight-mile advance on Day 1 of the attack – what would have been the largest Allied advance if his plan was successful. Rawlinson was helped by the weather. Early morning fog helped to disguise what the Allies were doing.
As the Allies advanced, 600 aircraft from the RAF attacked German positions dropping phosphorous bombs.
The Canadian and Australian troops advanced five miles by midday. British troops in the hillier northern sector –where tanks found it more difficult to operate – fared worse but still advanced. Such was the success of the attack, Rawlinson felt confident enough to order 20,000 cavalry troops to advance. Cavalry had suffered very badly in the bogged down conditions of trench warfare but in this attack they took much land, though suffering heavy casualties.
The sheer intensity of the attack overwhelmed the Germans.
“The Germans were surrendering everywhere. We knew it was going to be the end of the war.” Major S Evers, Australian Corps.
The Germans lost more ground on August 8th than on any other day on the Western Front. By August 12th the battle had lost momentum but the damage suffered in the initial attack had been sufficient to critically damage the German Army. Ludendorff told Wilhelm II that the war was lost.
This led Erich Ludendorff to describe the first day of the battle as "the black day of the German Army." Amiens was one of the first major battles involving armoured warfare and marked the end of trench warfare on the Western Front; fighting becoming mobile once again until the armistice was signed on 11 November 1918.
David
Last edited:
