Round Nose vs Spire Point - Which Hits Harder?

Gatehouse

Gatehouse

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Ron Spomer comes up on my Youtube feed on occasion, because I watch lots of gun stuff.

In the first couple of minutes he fields a question:


Round Nose vs Spire Point - Which Hits Harder?



For the most part I have always used pointy bullets as they make more sense for most of BC hunting - shots from 10 feet to 500 yards. But I've used some blunt bullets at closer ranges - like 303, 30-30 and 45 Colt. They all killed fine but I'm not sure if I could say they killed better.

i would ask the same question Spomer does- Anyone have opinions or empirical evidence?
 
Blunt nosed bullets do seem to impart more initial impact on animals than the pointy bullets...
They have more frontal area than the spitzers and with larger calibers, means that more energy is going to be spread across the point of impact area. = Smack.
Results tend to be more instantly apparent in my experience on a variety of big game taken with cartridges using RN/FP bullets over the years (mostly in lever action cartridges).

I believe Africa is a great case for empirical evidence...while spitzers have killed many dangerous game animals, the larger frontal areas of round nose or flat point bullets used there cannot be denied. But in most cases, we are not talking about long range hunting. Shooting distances can often be well under 100 yards.
This is why large dangerous game cartridges are typically designed for bullets with large frontal areas, so that they impart more energy quickly on the game for better performance.
But due to this and the fact that they require more velocity to penetrate deeper with the momentum attained by the mass and velocity, that the cases are so much larger to be able to drive them at the required speed to attain that velocity for reliable penetration into the vitals.

Velocity is a key component, but at the end of the day there is still the same old controversial question: Do you want all of the bullet's energy dumped in the animals, or do you want (or need) full penetration of the animal with the bullet for better blood trailing? (Full penetration does result in some wasted energy as the bullet continues past the target animal) On dangerous game where tracking is often necessary, this is quite often preferred...bears are included here.
 
My thinking is wider gets better the less they expand. Like a hard cast. Or as has been pointed out, at slower speed.

A bullet typically expands and fragments so rapidly as it impacts and enters an animal creating a wound track so much larger than the bullet, I can't possibly imagine that in those couple milliseconds they perceive the difference between a Spitzer and a round nose.
 
I’ve used round nose or flat nose bullets for bear since I lost one with an eld X out of my .308.
I can say from experience using round or flat nose bullets, they hit much harder. You can see the ripple and impact where they hit the animal way more dramatically than spire point and tipped bullets in my experience.. what difference does it make once it enters the animal? I have no idea but they definitely transfer a dramatic amount of energy upon impact.

I’ll also say I often retrieve the round nose / flat bullets far more often than the others so if you want pass through they aren’t the bullet for you obviously but personally I’d rather have the bullet dump all its energy into the target and stop it where it stands.
 
I don't think it matters after the first inch... shoot whichever is more accurate... surprisingly, the RN's shoot better in a couple of my rifles... I have always gravitated towards pointy bullets though.
 
hoytcanon said:
I don't think it matters after the first inch... shoot whichever is more accurate... surprisingly, the RN's shoot better in a couple of my rifles... I have always gravitated towards pointy bullets though.
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Same here, always figured round nose, non-boattail bullets just have more bearing surface and are more stable, but who knows?

As an aside, always thought it would be really interesting if someoe who hunts a lot, like you or a gun writer or something, compiled a list of distance an animal travels vs whether or not a bullet exits. As long as it reaches and passes through vitals, I'd imagine the relationship is very weak, but open to being proven wrong lol

If this happens in the vitals, round nosed bullet or not, exit or not, the left side is a lot more important than the right side of that wound track...with CNS hit or being overwhelmed being much more important a factor in dropping an animal on the shot.

12-Ballistics-Gel-Blocks-600x275.jpg
 
hoytcanon said:
I don't think it matters after the first inch... shoot whichever is more accurate... surprisingly, the RN's shoot better in a couple of my rifles... I have always gravitated towards pointy bullets though.
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I think this way, as well. I think the pointy expanding bullets fly better in air from muzzle to impact, but upon hitting something, they very typically flatten out to be not very pointy any more - is several handfuls of various bullets here dug out of deer and elk - all were "pointy" when they were chambered - none are now - most look like round nosed mushroom over a smaller bullet shank - what I think they are supposed to do. Whether they "fly better" is sort of pointless for shots under a couple hundred meters - would be like putting a boat tail on a 30-30 bullet - and I am aware of at least one maker that did that - seems to have no practical function other than a sales gimmick.

Too much ideas from target shooting, or military experience drifting 2 km machine gun fire - has not been my experience for killing deer - I suspect longest shot at un-wounded deer that I ever took might have been getting out to 300 meters - and I killed it, but the bullet hit like 18 inches (45 cm) away from where I thought I was aiming for. I thought I aimed for the lung / heart area on that broadside deer - the bullet hit it in the neck.
 
Joel said:
Same here, always figured round nose, non-boattail bullets just have more bearing surface and are more stable, but who knows?

As an aside, always thought it would be really interesting if someoe who hunts a lot, like you or a gun writer or something, compiled a list of distance an animal travels vs whether or not a bullet exits. As long as it reaches and passes through vitals, I'd imagine the relationship is very weak, but open to being proven wrong lol

If this happens in the vitals, round nosed bullet or not, exit or not, the left side is a lot more important than the right side of that wound track...with CNS hit or being overwhelmed being much more important a factor in dropping an animal on the shot.

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What I bolded is ideal, I think, but I've taken many, many deer that fell down like 100 yards away from where they had been hit - the bullet killed them - is like they did not know that, when they took off. If you are shooting at animals to kill them, perhaps need to learn about tracking and follow-up - has been many times I have finished a deer or elk, sometimes hours after the first bullet hit - is not ideal, but it happens. Too much today about expectation to fire and see the thing drop dead - it might happen - it has happened to me - but I would not consider that to be the "normal" sequence of events. Is more typical to aim and fire - then a follow-up - and find the thing dead or nearly dead. Because the thing ran away, does not mean it is not dead - that longish shot I took to get that deer - we fired at it at least 4 or 5 times after my first shot - after it crossed a fence - I could see fine blood spray on snow, when I walked up to look at its tracks - actually to determine how it had crossed the fence without jumping over it - it had gone through an open gate that we could not see from where we were shooting from - it had totally bled out by the time I found it - yet our son, my Dad and I saw the big jump - high waving flag tail as it entered that poplar bush - all of us were convinced it had not been touched, yet it was laying perhaps 4 paces into that bush - stone dead - at least 200 yards from where it had been, when I first fired at it.
 
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Exactly :)

In the quote responding to people saying that a round nose, or an "energy dump" knocks animals down with saying that the only way to reliably drop an animal on the spot is to stop CNS function.

Round nose vs flat nose or exit vs no exit has very little to do with an animal not going anywhere, IMO.
 
Potashminer said:
What I bolded is ideal, I think, but I've taken many, many deer that fell down like 100 yards away from where they had been hit - the bullet killed them - is like they did not know that, when they took off. If you are shooting at animals to kill them, perhaps need to learn about tracking and follow-up - has been many times I have finished a deer or elk, sometimes hours after the first bullet hit - is not ideal, but it happens. Too much today about expectation to fire and see the thing drop dead - it might happen - it has happened to me - but I would not consider that to be the "normal" sequence of events. Is more typical to aim and fire - then a follow-up - and find the thing dead or nearly dead. Because the thing ran away, does not mean it is not dead - that longish shot I took to get that deer - we fired at it at least 4 or 5 times after my first shot - after it crossed a fence - I could see fine blood spray on snow, when I walked up to look at its tracks - actually to determine how it had crossed the fence without jumping over it - it had gone through an open gate that we could not see from where we were shooting from - it had totally bled out by the time I found it - yet our son, my Dad and I saw the big jump - high waving flag tail as it entered that poplar bush - all of us were convinced it had not been touched, yet it was laying perhaps 4 paces into that bush - stone dead - at least 200 yards from where it had been, when I first fired at it.
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I've never been a fan of the term "bang flop." It does happen at times, but mostly when you miss... it certainly does not represent the "ideal" by any stretch... now enter the "mountain goat on a cliff" analogy...
 
I suspect it is outdated thinking from before spitzer softpoint cup and core bullets were truly figured out. We may be getting back to it with unleaded bullets.
 
hoytcanon said:
I don't think it matters after the first inch... shoot whichever is more accurate... surprisingly, the RN's shoot better in a couple of my rifles... I have always gravitated towards pointy bullets though.
Click to expand...

I somewhat think that too, and wonder if the idea of RN hitting harder than SP is because often round nose bullets are often heavier. For instance 215 gr in a 303 British compared to 180 gr SP.
 
In my experience round or flat nose visibly hit harder than spitzers according to the reaction of the animals hit
I tend to shoot for the high shoulder shot which anchors game well. As for whether the bullet Stayin gun the animal vs exiting my view is the bullet that stopped inside didn't transfer energy all the way thru whereas the bullet that exists carrys it's energy transfer completely thru the animal. Personally I'd rather the bullet punch a big deep hole thru and exit while breaking any bones in the path. Heavy for caliber round nose bullets at modest velocity seem to fit the role perfectly for me. I don't generally shoot big game over 80 yards
 
Gatehouse said:
I somewhat think that too, and wonder if the idea of RN hitting harder than SP is because often round nose bullets are often heavier. For instance 215 gr in a 303 British compared to 180 gr SP.
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The reason is likely the inverse of why we tend to think that pointy bullets penetrate better... it makes sense visually that the blunt bullet would create more frontal shock, and the pointy bullet will "poke through" better... but there are likely other factors at play that have a far greater impact on shock and penetration than the frontal profile of the projectile.
 
hoytcanon said:
The reason is likely the inverse of why we tend to think that pointy bullets penetrate better... it makes sense visually that the blunt bullet would create more frontal shock, and the pointy bullet will "poke through" better... but there are likely other factors at play that have a far greater impact on shock and penetration than the frontal profile of the projectile.
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I could see how a round FMJ may impact better than a SP FMJ and the SP FMJ penetrates better. but when using hunting bullets...They all expand, that's the reason for using an expanding bullet.

I hope some youtube gun channel picks this debate up and does some testing in ballistic gel etc. I'm not about to start using round bullets in most of my rifles but it would be fun to see the comparison.
 
It has to do with jacket thickness nothing to do with round nose or pointed controlled expansion . The thinner the jacket on the front third of the bullet round nose or pointed is how expansion is controlled
On large diameter bullets 45 cal 50 cal it is still the same heaver thicker copper flower expansion thinner jacket faster expansion
It’s a mathematically designed
180 gr 308 diam bullet will hit with the same energy at a given distance round nose or pointed because the round nose sheds velocity quicker it’s energy will drop of faster
It’s all math nothing else
 
I always thought that round nose hunting bullets were made to open up faster than there spritzer counterparts… maybe it was true when spitzers started to appear?? I have lots of round nose 7mm 175gn old stock Hornady bullets…. And 175gr spitzers maybe I can do some testing when I get a 7mm rifle again!
 
I don't think most hunters can accumulate enough experience with enough nearly identical bullets (with the only difference being RN vs spire point) to ever see a measurable difference. Nathan Foster of New Zealand has done a lot of careful, practical bullet studies, and he actually does think that there is a slight edge to the on- impact performance of RN bullets if both hit at the same velocity. You'd have to read his stuff to get the full explanation.
I think spitzer bullet designs have been pretty much perfected, and are the best choice in most situations. But I still like to shoot the old RN designs some times. For instance loading a 7x57 with a 175 gr. RN just seems right.
 
I'm working on Ruger .416 with a Barnes 400gr BND SLD Round Nose bullet at 2,000 to 2,200fps. Gun is a Ruger Hawkeye Stainless and Hogue stock.

Bear, moose and deer in this area are never more than 150yds. My deer, this year, was taken with .308 Sako HammerHead 180g ctg at maybe 40-50yds. Double lung shot. Deer ran maybe 100yds or so.

I love the gun. It's in very good shape but I got it for cheap.
I'm hoping for a do all that can anchour game. (maybe that's impossible?)
 
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