Royal Canadian Air Force S&W Found...

[Hammerdown]

Hello
I have been a member here awhile, but have not Posted in awhile. I recently got in my Possesion a rather Neat Old Royal Canadian Air Force World War I Side Arm. I Got this from a fella in New Hampshire, that did a bit of Tracing of this Old revolver's history and it was revealed this old Revolver was a World War I Time. Sometime in it's life it had a set of Micro adjustable sights added onto it and it was during the King-Micro merge as the base is King and the Blade and rear assembly are stamped Micro. This revolver had a factory conversion to the More Popular .45 Colt, and it appears it was at the request of his rather wealthy Parents as this was his second issued revolver during the War, as his first was the .455 Round. here is a copy and past version of the Updated History trail this Old revolver has taken, along with some Pictures. I hope you enjoy it. Regards, Hammerdown





Hello
I went back to the dealer I got that big .455 from in an effort to come up with more history if possible.Everything he told me isn't written in stone as he got the history passed down from the family he bought it from.Having said that I will add that he is the dealer of choice up here for estate buys because he's fair and honest. He told me that your old Smith was indeed a Canadian revolver from the WW 1 era. All else he could say was that he had gotten it from a family who was very private, but who had a son in New Hampshire who joined the RCAF in the first days of War One and was in Canada for pilot training. He was issued the pistol there and spent some time in France before the end of the war. Apparently he went in the RCAF early in the war but this was the second revolver he was issued and it was converted, unlike his first which was truly a 455, to .45 Colt after it was issued at Smith & Wesson by the pilot's family who were afraid that he would have trouble with what they felt was the Anemic .455 Webley round.
I asked the dealer if he could fix it to let me speak with the family and he said he wouldn't promise but he would try. He did tell me that he was willing to sell me the revolver at exactly what he paid the family for it, both because I was a customer and because they expressed a wish that the old Smith get in the hands of someone who would appreciate it. I assured him that the new owner was a man who already appreciated it. If I get anything more I'll email you.Looks to me as if that Smith has come full circle from a warrior to another warrior who respects what he has.
Use it in good fortune.

 

[NAA]

Nice old S&W wheelgun with a history to trace, no doubt.

 

[Hammerdown]

Hello Naa
I appreciate the Kind words. As soon as it showed up, I proceeded to get some hand loads cranking out of my press. I was frustrated as the Hornady Cowboy lead bullets that measure 454" were not grouping right.. I Later learned this was factory converted, and used some standard Hornady XTP's in 250 Grain and it complimented my loading to drop them all quickly in the Ten Ring. I Yearn to Know the Pilots Name so I can do a full Background search on him and this weapon. I hope my seller is able to arrange a Phone conversation with the Pilots heirs as I would love to complete it's history trail. Regards, Hammerdown

 

[Lee Enfield]

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/hist/origin_e.asp

While it's a fine gun, I would be very leary about the "new hampshire" gun dealers story.

Your revolver shows commercial/civilian .455 proofs on the right side of the barrel, this indicates that the gun was sold on the commercial market in Britain chambered in .455 (probably well post wwI). Therefore it was rechambered to .45 Colt after leaving the UK, not before.

The markings on the left side of the frame (crossed lances, crowned proof) and probably one on the bottom of the grip frame by the serial #, indicate British military inspection & acceptance. From there it could have been transfered to a Canadian unit (which may not have marked ownership) or private soldier.

Officers at this time were still expected to provide their own sidearms in the issued cartridge. Often these guns are tracable to military orders (ie, agent for the GOV'T of Canada), but have no unit, inspection or property markings.

Apparently the guns were purchased from the "Gov't agent" by the individual officers.

The Smith & Wesson "2nd Model Hand Ejector" was produced in .455 from @1915-17 for Canadian & British orders.

Production totalled @70,000+ revolvers.

 

[Hammerdown]

Hello
The Proof marks in various Locations of this revolver also show it was Proof Stamped in England by the Enfield insp. It has a british Proof stamp that also indicates it was Non Commisioned as a Governemt weapon, and released for Civilian sale. The revolver was shown sold from the Factory in March 1916, according to S&W factory records which backs up the Theory it was a World war I weapon Purchased and sent to Remington Arms in New York, City who was the Sole exporter for all british exported S&W weapons back then, and sent from there to England for it's british Proof marks. I also found reference Information where in 1916 The Canadian Governmet received 724 revolvers chambered in .45 Colt, and it is unclear at this time if this revolver may have been one of those. Once I find out more about the person that it was issued to, I will send for a factory letter which may say this is one of those sent to the Canadian Government in 1916 chambered in 45 Colt. as stated above I do know it defiantly was Sold in May, 1916 according to S&W's Factory records so it may be one of the .45 Colt revolver's shipped. So far, I have no doubt to where it has been and whether it has served as an Official Canadian Royal Air Force weapon, as all that has been told is checking out as Positive. Regards, Hammerdown

 

[EdGCNM]

Well, the biggest problem I see is that there WAS no RCAF during the First World War for it to have been with. Canada did not have its own air force at all during the Great War.

Canadian pilots during the Great War served either with the British Royal Flying Corps or the Royal Naval Air Service until April 1, 1918, when those services were combined into the new Royal Air Force.

Although attempts were underway to form a Canadian air force before the end of the war, they were not realized. Following the war, a couple of squadrons were formed briefly, but were disbanded by early 1920. The RCAF came into existence in 1925 as a tiny force under severe economic pressure from a government that didn't like military spending. That sounds familiar.

It is possible that the gun was used in the early RCAF I suppose, as a war surplus sidearm that was acquired for their use.

 

[Hammerdown]

Hello
Being from The United States I may be calling this Time in Era incorrect. I have read into the History a bit, and noticed that Britian did not want to bring Canadians into her World War I Effort, Nor recognize their efforts But then I get Info. on some that did fly Missions as The Canadian Royal Air Force in Britian. perhaps someone could explain this to me better ? Here is what I found, and it happend way before 1925. Here is what I have found so far. I hope someone can explain this as it seems confusing to me as well. Hammerdown


History of the Air Force
Canada as a country is singularly indebted to aviation, which opened up our North and remains an essential lifeline to many areas of this vast dominion. Canada's Air Force contributes to our proud and distinguished record as International Peacekeepers and providers of humanitarian aid to all corners of the globe.

From the moment Canadian airmen first flew with the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service to the more recent creation and implementation of Canada Command. Canada’s Air Force has continuously evolved to meet current and future challenges.

Once referred to as the “Aerodrome of Democracy”, Canada’s Air Force continues to contribute knowledge, technology and intrepid heroes to the world and will celebrate its 85th Anniversary in 2009.

RCAF Honours & Awards

Here, you'll find historian, Hugh Halliday's, extensive compilation of over 8000 award winners. This alphabetical index will be of interest to veterans' families & history scholars.

 

[Hammerdown]

Hello All
Iam not trying to start a Flame War here, I am just trying to gather as Much information about The Royal Canadian Air Force as I can.I have scoured the internet and find most of the Information Either Vague or Not conclusive. I appreciate any help Ya'll can give on this to complete the History trail on this very Important War Weapon. Best regards, Hammerdown

 

[Lee Enfield]

Hello All
Iam not trying to start a Flame War here, I am just trying to gather as Much information about The Royal Canadian Air Force as I can.I have scoured the internet and find most of the Information Either Vague or Not conclusive. I appreciate any help Ya'll can give on this to complete the History trail on this very Important War Weapon. Best regards, Hammerdown

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/hist/origin_e.asp

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/hist/ww_1_e.asp

 

[Lee Enfield]

Hammerdown:

This gun is most definitely NOT one of the fabled 724 .45 Colt revolvers shipped by S&W to the Canadian Gov't.

It is both S&W factory marked & British civilian proofed as a .455, NOT a .45 Colt.

 

[Hammerdown]

This gun is most definitely NOT one of the fabled 724 .45 Colt revolvers shipped by S&W to the Canadian Gov't.

Hello
How can you arrive at that ? This was not a Fable, They did ship 724 of them chambered in .45 Colt according to my reference book and Roy Jinks the S&W Factory historion, whose information I hold to be the most accurate. This gun is Proof marked at the Enfield Location by one of the British inspectors. It was said that the 724 that were shipped to Canada had .455 Markings on the barrel, as S&W was finishing the Remainder of their order up using available parts that were previously marked by them.The 724 That got shipped to Canada Had British Proof marks and were Marked by S&W as well as this one does. The S&W Civilian model .455's I have seen do NOT have any British Proof marks anywhere on them.Regards, Hammerdown

 

[Lee Enfield]

Hello
How can you arrive at that ? This was not a Fable, They did ship 724 of them chambered in .45 Colt according to my reference book and Roy Jinks the S&W Factory historion, whose information I hold to be the most accurate. This gun is Proof marked at the Enfield Location by one of the British inspectors. It was said that the 724 that were shipped to Canada had .455 Markings on the barrel, as S&W was finishing the Remainder of their order up using available parts that were previously marked by them.The 724 That got shipped to Canada Had British Proof marks and were Marked by S&W as well as this one does. The S&W Civilian model .455's I have seen do NOT have any British Proof marks anywhere on them.Regards, Hammerdown

Please read the second para of my post as to how I arrived at the first which you quote.


What reference are you using?

If they were shipped directly to Canada, they wouldn't have Brit proof marks from Enfield now would they now?

 

[NAA]

I'm perplexed.... can someone enlighten me... this particular S&W revolver aside... did S&W send 700 + large frame revolvers to Canada chambered for .45 Colt that were in fact marked with .455 in the WWI era?

 

[Hammerdown]

Hello
All Revolver's that were sent to Britian or Canada have the barrels marked .455. This one has Much less proof markings than other's I have seen that were sent to Britian and used there. It may or may not be one of the Low numbered revolver's that was sent to Canada. From what I understand ALL revolver's that were intended for Britan's War cause had been through the British Proof system and checkes before being dispersed, whether they were sent to Canada or Exported and used by Britian. This revolver is NOT a civilian issue, as those have NO proof marks any place on them.Regards, Hammerdown

 

[Hammerdown]

[QUOTEWhat reference are you using?][/QUOTE]

Hello
I used Two reference books. One was written by Mr. Roy Jinks in 1976 Entitled The History of Smith & Wesson and the Other book was written by an associate Smith & Wesson Collectors association member. Both gave the Number I stated that were shipped to Canada in their findings on this Model. Regards, Hammerdown

 

[Lee Enfield]

I'm perplexed.... can someone enlighten me... this particular S&W revolver aside... did S&W send 700 + large frame revolvers to Canada chambered for .45 Colt that were in fact marked with .455 in the WWI era?

No they didn't.

S&W would not have sent guns with incorrect bbl markings anywhere.

The original group of Triple Locks chambered in .455 (converted at the factory from .44 Specials) were unmarked as to caliber.

Jenks DOES list 724 2nd models as having been sent to Canada chambered in .45 Colt as a single shipment.

This shipment is deemed a mystery as the guns have never shown up.

One of my (very advanced) S&W collector friends says that they might have gone to the RNWMP, but this would have been a substantial percentage of their inventory; ie) we'd have seen them.

I'm starting to think that our friend Hammerdown, may just be "fishing"....Bye Bye....As I'm no longer feeding this one.

 

[Hammerdown]

The original group of Triple Locks chambered in .455 (converted at the factory from .44 Specials) were unmarked as to caliber.

Hello

Wrong, where did you get your information from ?. All factory conversions were Properly marked with an over stamp. On the second on the Second series .455 Mark II revolver's. In the reference Book entitled Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson By Suppica and Nahas on page 121 it is said, and I Qoute { that several .455 revolver's were converted over to .45 Colt. by S&W and Other Gun Smiths. A Teltale outside Gunsmith trait is that the cylinder face is cut and left in the White with the original serial number's Missing. {Look close at the Picture with the cylinder face and you will see mine has the original serial still in place} it goes on to say that the ones that were switched to .45 Colt caliber from .455 will have an over stamp of the cartridge on the barrel markings. Mine does NOT have this ? It said, approximately 691 of the first Models were stamped and assembled in the second series serial range. From Both Models 59,150 were manufactured for English service and 14,500 for the Canadian Service. A few commercial guns were made with 13 Known in the Late 13000 to Early 16000 serial number range. with a total of69,754 manufactured between 1915-1917. of these approximately 724 in .45 Colt were made for the Canadian Governmment} Unquote of what was Printed in the reference book stated. I am Not fishing for anything, nor am I saying this is some rare Piece. What I do notice as it has a lot fewer British Proof marks than other's I Have seen that did actual service in Britan during World War I. You seemed to turn this into a Pissing match and All I wanted to know was more information on this revolver, and could care less of it's total worth as I will not be selling it. I guess a factory letter will close the page on this revolver. Thanks, but I believe I have seen all I Need here, now I will contact the factory that made it for the follow up. Hammerdown

 

[Hitzy]

It's a bubba'd .455 hand ejector. It would be worth something if it was still in .455. It also looks like it was reblued at some point.
Buy the gun not the story, especially if you are on the gullable side. Logic tells me that in no way shape or form would any firearm be released from S&W factory in a different chambering then was marked on the barrel, especially for a british military contract for a cartridge they were not using.
It is a WWI era revolver, likely used/stored in britain until surplused post WWII.
All that lovely bubbaing was probably done in the last 40-50 years.....stateside no doubt as they are in love with the .45LC and there would not have been any .455 ammo around to shoot out of it anyway.

 

[NAA]

Okay, that makes sense to me....

I've got an old WWI vintage S&W in .455 [marked .455 on the barrel] and on the opposite side it's engraved "Lieut. H.F. Beattie, 29th Canadians". My Dad owned it since the early 1950's and gave it to me about 20 years ago. No British proofs just one lonely Canadian one...

 

[green]

The proof marks on the right of the barrel are London commercial marks showing that the arm was proofed in its original .455" cal sometime after the 1954 rules of proof came into effect on 1 Feb. 1955.
The Enfield inspector marks show that it passed inspection as a MkII S&W which was by definition a .455" cal arm.
Caveat emptor.