running deer

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A few years ago, I had a 45/70. Shot a spike buck with it at about 75 yds. He didn't flinch, walked 2 or 3 more steps and then fell over.

This year, I shot 4 deer with my 7mm Weatherby. The first was a buck. Through and through at 123 yds. impacted the top of the shoulder, and out through the opposite shoulder blade. Dropped and expired very quickly.

First doe shot at 145 yds. Impact behind shoulder, through both lungs. 3 finger exit wound. She did a little stutter step and then ran like hell. Significant blood trail that was easy to follow. Found her piled up about 50-60 yds. back in the bush.

The yearling was at about 60 yds. Hit a little far back, through the lung, liver, and just clipped the top of the stomach. He jumped straight up in the air and took off running. Leaking tissue and blood and had an exit wound you could put your fist into. Ran 50 yds. and jumped over a fence.

Last doe hit at the front of both lungs, and took off like a rocket immediately after impact. Thought I missed her for sure. Easy to follow trail in the new snow. She brushed against some trees during her flight and left some hair and tissue behind. Found her about 70 yds in the thick stuff.

How do they manage to run with such a massive wound, when the on hit with the 45/70 didn't seem aware of the hit?
 
They are tough animals. Based on an FBI article on firearms stopping power, I have to conclude that unless you hit the central nervous system or break a shoulder, they don't stop until blood loss asphyxia takes place. The FBI article said shock power is non-existent.
 
With a slow bullet like the 45-70 the actual impact is less on the deer as it doesn't have the shocking power a faster round does. I've noticed the same thing with deer that have been shot at longer ranges. I shot a doe at just around 390 yds one season with my .280 Rem. She skittered off into the woods and then immediately came back out on the trail and began feeding again. Thinking I missed, I shot again and she again trotted to the bush before once again coming back onto the trail. I was just racking the 3rd shell into the rifle when she suddenly staggered and fell over. Both bullets raked through her and took out the lungs twice but because she never saw me, all she was reacting to were impacts on her body that she had no idea of the origins of.

Another one was shot at about 25 yards and she didn't see me either but at the shot ran straight at me and stopped literally at my feet. I think they run farther if they know your there when you shoot them. If they don't know you're there, they don't run very far if at all.

All 4 deer this year were Bang Flops. But then headshots help on that front.
 
I shot a WT doe this year broadside at 25 yards with a 7mm-08. She stood there watching me as I raised my rifle and pulled the trigger. Shot her through the heart and both lungs. The 140grain partition hit a rib going in and broke into three, exiting through the opposite ribs, shoulder, and base of the neck.

She spun around and ran 50 yards before piling up in the bush. After gutting her and seeing the damage I was amazed she made it that far.
 
impacted the top of the shoulder, and out through the opposite shoulder blade. Dropped and expired very quickly
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Shoulder shots do that, more often than not.

First doe shot at 145 yds. Impact behind shoulder, through both lungs. 3 finger exit wound. She did a little stutter step and then ran like hell. Significant blood trail that was easy to follow. Found her piled up about 50-60 yds. back in the bush
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Lung shots do that, more often than not.
 
"...FBI article said shock power is non-existent..." Likely about handgun bullets.
"...didn't seem aware of the hit?..." Exactly. Takes a bit of time for the shock to kick in. Happens with people too. Knew a guy who walked off the Dieppe beach with 8 bullet holes in him. One caused a compound leg fracture. Johnny didn't know it until the MO on the ship asked him how he got off the beach.
 
I have shot deer with archery, black powder, 30-30, 308, 300 win mag and honestly I can't say that the method makes that much difference in how far they go. I have had archery deer drop on the spot and rifle shot deer that never even flinched, just stood there as if nothing happened. I can't figure out what makes one go like hell and the next one drop.
 
sunray said:
"...FBI article said shock power is non-existent..." Likely about handgun bullets.
"...didn't seem aware of the hit?..." Exactly. Takes a bit of time for the shock to kick in. Happens with people too. Knew a guy who walked off the Dieppe beach with 8 bullet holes in him. One caused a compound leg fracture. Johnny didn't know it until the MO on the ship asked him how he got off the beach.
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"...FBI article said shock power is non-existent..." Likely about handgun bullets.

Yes it was about handgun bullets. But, considering Newton's laws of equal and opposite reactions, the bullet can't impart any more energy than is delivered to the shooter holding the rifle. Considering what I've observed and others have described, I don't think "shock power" out of a high powered rifle does much. The bullet creates a wound that is either incapacitating or not, and if it isn't, only blood loss slows the animal down after that. A deer seems to be able to run with heavily damaged lungs and two holes spewing blood and doesn't stop until lack of blood flow causes it to pass out and eventually expire. I think it near instantly recovers from or is near impervious to the level of hydrostatic stock delivered by several thousand ft-lbs of energy.
 
One article I read referred to a study done by South African veterinarians on game culling expeditions. They determined that the few animals killed instantly in their tracks without the central nervous system being hit were likely hit at the instant of peak systolic blood pressure - the heart was pulsing blood at full pressure. The result was a hydrostatic shock to the brain, and "lights out". That's why you can't predict the "instant kill" effect from a chest shot that does not also break shoulder bones or spine. Timing must be perfect.
Death from blood loss comes from the brain losing oxygen, so of course animals may run several seconds with very extensive wounds, about as long as they can run while holding their breath.
 
My 09 whitetail buck was shot in the neck with a 300WSM 180 gr. The deer was facing me and it dropped instantly and didnt even kick after. The bullet was found in the neck meat (huge neck from rut) no organs or spine were touched. Amazed me
 
Grizzlypeg said:
"...FBI article said shock power is non-existent..." Likely about handgun bullets.

Yes it was about handgun bullets. But, considering Newton's laws of equal and opposite reactions, the bullet can't impart any more energy than is delivered to the shooter holding the rifle. Considering what I've observed and others have described, I don't think "shock power" out of a high powered rifle does much. The bullet creates a wound that is either incapacitating or not, and if it isn't, only blood loss slows the animal down after that. A deer seems to be able to run with heavily damaged lungs and two holes spewing blood and doesn't stop until lack of blood flow causes it to pass out and eventually expire. I think it near instantly recovers from or is near impervious to the level of hydrostatic stock delivered by several thousand ft-lbs of energy.
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Shock definitely is a factor. If a 10 gram (155 grain) bullet is propelled with 4000 Joules (3000 ft lbs) of energy it will have a velocity of 894 m/s (about 3000 fps). If it stops within .25 meters of meat it will will stop in o.ooo56 seconds. The equivalent force of that felt impact will be about 16000 Newtons (circa 4000 lbs).

So with the equal energy coming back, a 4 kg rifle (about 8.5 lbs) would have a velocity of 44 m/s (144 fps) spread out over a much wider area than the point of a bullet and would stop in about o.5 of a second. The equivalent force of felt impact will be 352 Newtons (86 lbs).

So the deer feels about 46.5 times the amount of force the shoulder does. That makes a definite difference.

Now play with the math any way you want and put in all the variables you want but the numbers will end up within fine degrees of those. The shocking power of a big game rifle is definitely a factor in killing animals and a real big one at that.
 
Only consistant bang flops with deer for me are when the animal is facing directly toward me. Hit them in the chest and the bullet rarely passes through. Guess all the energy is expended on the animal rather than passing straight through. Most broadside hits will see the deer go a short ways.
 
I agree with the sjemac fellow. I think Hydrostatic shock as well as the mental state is the main killer. An motivated animal or individual's system will slow the onset of shock and / or bleeding until the fight or flight instinict is gone.
Helps explain why soldiers can continue with grievous wounds through a battle situation. Probably explains why a frightened animal will run with a mortal wound.
Barring main pelvic/shoulder or vital organ hit's. Those are pretty hard to explain
Just my opinion.
 
sjemac said:
Shock definitely is a factor. If a 10 gram (155 grain) bullet is propelled with 4000 Joules (3000 ft lbs) of energy it will have a velocity of 894 m/s (about 3000 fps). If it stops within .25 meters of meat it will will stop in o.ooo56 seconds. The equivalent force of that felt impact will be about 16000 Newtons (circa 4000 lbs).

So with the equal energy coming back, a 4 kg rifle (about 8.5 lbs) would have a velocity of 44 m/s (144 fps) spread out over a much wider area than the point of a bullet and would stop in about o.5 of a second. The equivalent force of felt impact will be 352 Newtons (86 lbs).

So the deer feels about 46.5 times the amount of force the shoulder does. That makes a definite difference.

Now play with the math any way you want and put in all the variables you want but the numbers will end up within fine degrees of those. The shocking power of a big game rifle is definitely a factor in killing animals and a real big one at that.
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I don't understand what you are comparing here. The bullet mass compared to the rifle? I dont' see the relevance, since the bullet's energy is absorbed by the many kilograms of animal whose flesh it penetrates. I doubt the shock wave from the bullet kills, it may temporarily stun, but only damage to tissue and blood loss will kill. Take a look at this article. They shot 90kg pigs in the abdomen, and saw no signs of shock wave damage.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/shock_wave_myth.pdf
 
Grizzlypeg said:
I don't understand what you are comparing here. The bullet mass compared to the rifle? I dont' see the relevance, since the bullet's energy is absorbed by the many kilograms of animal whose flesh it penetrates. I doubt the shock wave from the bullet kills, it may temporarily stun, but only damage to tissue and blood loss will kill. Take a look at this article. They shot 90kg pigs in the abdomen, and saw no signs of shock wave damage.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/shock_wave_myth.pdf
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I think you are confusing the "sonic shock wave" of the paper with "shocking power" -- a nonscientific term used to discuss the rapid transfer of energy to tissue.

It was you that stated that the energy of the bullet and the rifle are the same. I was pointing out that while the energies may be the same -- the energy of the bullet causes more damage due to the short time it takes for the bullet to stop.

But the bullet's energy is dissipated much more rapidly than the rifles is. A simple change in energy is not what I'm talking about but the rapid change in the velocity of the bullet that imparts a much larger felt force than does the rifle on the shooter. The shock may not actually kill the animal but the temporary stretch cavity can cause a stunning effect to the CNS that causes the animal to drop in it's tracks and bleed out while down -- a bang flop without the bullet going through the CNS.

When you shoot a deer and you find a 8 inch hole in the lungs while the bullet has retained its mass and shape there is definitely a lot of damage being caused by the "temporary cavitation" caused by the rapid energy tranfer of the bullet.
 
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