Runout with a lee turret press.

JBD

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Ok I posted this on the reloading subforum and got no feedback.
I've been using an old lee turret press with lee delux dies. I do not have a runout guage but I am wondering if it would be to my advantage to switch to a rock chucker, or lyman orange crusher, or lee classic cast single stage press to reduce runout on my cartridges.
 
Instead of spending money on the press (Although intuitively, I feel a single-stage is a superior design) perhaps get a run-out gauge... this will answer the question objectively.
 
If you decide on a single stage press, I'd suggest the Forster Co-ax, they have shown to produce ammo with the least runout.
 
Ok I posted this on the reloading subforum and got no feedback.
I've been using an old lee turret press with lee delux dies. I do not have a runout guage but I am wondering if it would be to my advantage to switch to a rock chucker, or lyman orange crusher, or lee classic cast single stage press to reduce runout on my cartridges.

No. Don't fix what isn't broken. - dan
 
Maybe you can borrow a runout gauge? Then just run a selection of your ammo through it and see what you're producing.
Note* bring a bunch, a couple don't prove anything.

Where are you? Around the north Okanangan, I'll loan you mine.
 
So just for information sake ......

What exactly is runout and what is the cause. I don't see how a good quality press could cause this.

thx..

.
 
I think for our purposes "Runout" can be defined as the mis-alignment of the bullet tip with the centerline of the cartridge.

For instance if one would take a loaded round and slowly roll it on a table, and carefully watch the very tip of the bullet, does it "wobble" (turn in a tiny circle relative to the case) or does it appear to be motionless?

That "wobble" is runout.

At high levels of accuracy runout of more than 0.002" will open groups measurably.

There is also a potential for 'runouts' on other parts of the cartridge too; but in general those would be caused by either the chamber or a manufacturing defect of the case.
 
FWIW, I have had problems with runnout. I had a neck die with the expanding ball that gets pulled through the neck. It was missaligned, so caused runnout. I could not shoot better then 1.5" or so with it like that. I have since switched to a collet die.

With the newly fireformed and collet neck sized brass, I shot a .205 3 shot group today with my Savage 11, and the average for the day was just under an inch.

On his site, Jerry (www.mysticprecision.com, a site sponsor here) says any runnout greater than .004 and you will not shoot better then 1-1.5MOA.
 
On his site, Jerry (www.mysticprecision.com, a site sponsor here) says any runnout greater than .004 and you will not shoot better then 1-1.5MOA.

I have (and do) shoot ammo with up to .003 runout in competiton with absolute certainty that the bullet will go where I want it (for the most part). Granted, I only get 4 or 5/100 rounds with that much runout but I have no problem using those for the shorter ranges in the heat of competition. I would like to see proof that .004 runout will not shoot under MOA.
 
The quality of die will do more for reducing runnout than the press...
If you are after less than .004", go with a match quality die set.
 
Why does the trip down the barrel not correct/cancel out the runout?

Because the bullet will engrave off center and will continue down the rifling this way. If the bullet somehow could right itself, it would need to tear away from the rifling. This is not going to happen with a jacketed bullet.

When released at the muzzle, the bullet will rotate with the tip out of true.

Some bullets can tolerate this and settle down. Others will not. Also, if a bullet is not flying true and has a wobble, how much more drag does this cause during flight?

How does this change in drag affect its flight path?

Like a poorly thrown football, there are limits to how much wobble the ball can absorb before its flight goes completely wonky. For best accuracy and distance, a true spiral on the football yields the best results.

The best way to test what your bullet will or will not do is to shoot it at the furthest distances you want. Small errors at 100yds, can be huge problems at longer distances. 1000yds is very unforgiving.

As to runout of the press, I doubt that will be the case unless the ram is seriously wonky and pulling the case sideways. Unfortunately, some offshored presses are showing this problem.

Where I have found runout has been in the sizing and seater die.

For the sizer, too much sizing can cause seating to go wonky even though the exterior of the neck is true - don't ask, cause I have no clue how this is possible but the runout guage is indicating this and has been repeatable.

Necks can be pulled out of true by an expander ball that is not coming out of the neck true. This one is easy to see on the runout gauge. Measure before and after. I have had a few FL dies that didn't have a problem and others that did.

Finally, the seater is the most likely cause of runout either by not supporting the case enough and/or a mismatch between the seating stem and the bullet ogive and tip.

So to test your gear, measure the runout at each step of reloading and you will quickly identify trouble areas.

You don't need mega dollar reloading gear although it can help. BUT invest in a quality runout guage cause even big dollar stuff may not be working well with your series of components.

Better neck sizing dies like the Lee collet die and various bushing dies seem to get the job done without creating any runout. I feel 2 thou neck tension is plenty for match ammo. Some will use alot less.

Couple this with a Redding body die and the case can be sized without issue.

The Forster and Redding inline seaters seem to be the most successful in seating VLD bullets without creating runout. Reg. seaters are hit and miss and random - again, measure to find out.

Does alot of runout really cause problems? I have had ammo with alot of runout shoot some very decent groups but the averages were not as good as ammo with min runout.

With the amount of fuss and effort we put into making precision ammo (1/4 min or less capable), why settle for ammo with high amounts of runout ?

There are many areas in precision reloading that really don't affect groups 'MUCH' but that little bit less precision is what we spend all our efforts trying to eliminate.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
If you get a Rockchucker, be sure it doesn't have the wobbles. There's been reports of newer RockChuckers presses, that the ram wobbles at the bottom of the stroke. RCBS is legendary for their customer service, so I'm sure they'd take care of you, but it is something to look out for. Mine does not have the wobble, bought it in 2008, but since RCBS moved their castings overseas, this has been reported.

If I didn't have my Rockchucker, I'd buy a forster Co-ax, you're not going to do any better than that. It costs substantially more, but it'll do any press duty that the wildest mind could come up with.
 
Runout effect is relative to bearing surface. Short bearing surface bullets are more succeptible that long ones,and bearing surface is a ration of surfaace to over-all length.

Richard is right, 3 thou is an acceptable (and arbitrary) number. I call BS to the .4 thou resulting in 1 - 1.5 MOA.
 
Make sure your decapping rod/expander ball in your sizing die is true. I had a brand new RCBS die set with a slightly bent rod. It was replaced, but I suspect that most guys wouldn't even check a new die. Also be sure your seater die is not producing run-out...
 
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