Russian Beauty - MTs-8 ( МЦ-8 )

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Let’s start from the very beginning.

In 1946, the Ministry of Military production in Soviet Union founded new unit - “Sporting and Hunting Guns Central Research and Design Bureau”, abbreviated as TsKIB SOO (ЦКИБ СОО). During the years, TsKIB designed and developed many of hunting and sporting pistols, rifles and shotguns. One of the, legendary MTs-8 (Russian as МЦ-8) required our special attention and appreciation.
Designed in 1952, this shotgun starter the era of Soviet domination in international clay shooting.
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MTs-8 has very unique in quality design, which been proven by many award which Soviet sportsmen with this shotgun in hands – 16 gold, 9 silver, 15 bronze medals on Olympic Games. Famous master E.Petrov from MTs-8 made an absolute record 200 from 200 on skeet. Not so far ago, on XXVII Olympic Games in Sydney, Australia, Russian sportsman N.MIlchev won gold with shotgun Mts-108, which is a daughter of the Mts-8, and in ladies competition S.Demina with MTs-8 won silver.

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What is so different in this shotgun? The only answer would be – ITS POWER!
None of the modern shotguns can prove they can withstand such a colossus number of shots – in tests performed by Kreighoff and Beretta very often shotgun Mts-8 was working flawlessly after 500 000 shots, without any broken parts. Currently few proud owners of MTs-8 can show you recorded over 1000000 shots made from each of their shotguns. For sure, this shotgun deserves to be included into Guinness Book.

Special construction designed by TsKIB constructors were later copied by Beretta and its now very popular DT10 Trident has very similar breach lock construction, providing same legendary quality and reliability of its predecessor Mts-8. Look at the picture: same two hooks at the top barrel, locking frame shapes, same sliding lock… Just remember – MTs-8 designed in 1952, production period – 1953-1980, Beretta DT10 – production starts in 2000.

Mts-8:

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Beretta DT-10

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Looking at these pictures and you do not need a magnifying glass to see the similarities :)

Another special word is about MTs-8 barrels. Along with highest level of manual fitting and hours spent by experienced gunsmith in production of each shotgun (figure out why the price of this shotgun in 1976 was equal to the average yearly salary of the soviet worker!), TsKIB, as a part of the huge military industry, was able to use very special steel in their designs. MTs-8 got barrels from special steel - 3ХН2МФА – steel, used in space industry and artillery production, having mechanical strength almost twice higher than any other steel previously used in shotguns barrel production.

Few more photos of those Mts-8 from different sources:

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This is Mts-8 proudly presented by Soviet leader Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev to US President Dwight D. Eisenhower on his birthday in September 1959:
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See the highest level of engraving of those shotguns:

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However, because of the highest level of production expenses and lots of manual job, TsKIB was one of the first victims of falling USSR – it could not survive well on MTs production just as 70-80 units a year! Yes, just 4500 Mts-8 were produced in period 1953-1980, when Mts-8 production ended and later TsKIB switched to few new models –MTs-108, Mts-11, Mts-200, and production continues.

MTs-8 production line had few different submodels:

MTs-8-0 - skeet version with famous parabolic fixed open chokes, Kreighoff named them "Tula Choke"

MTs-8-1 - bunker shooting version with longer barrels and super tight fixed chokes and single trigger

MTs-8-2 - same as previous but with double trigger

MTs-8-3 - universal set with two barrels - one for skeet, another for bunker, single trigger

MTs-8-4 - same as above with double trigger


Well, observing TsKIB past achievements in years, many specialist saying that if TsKIB had enough resources to get modern milling CNCs and other metal processing equipment, continue their way of creation of excellent shotguns, shooting at highest level of completion with Perazzi and Kreighoff would be considered as inappropriate, inadequate to the level… :)

After some research I found that one of the Montreal companies started import of MTs-8 into Canada. Found a couple of MTs-8 here, in Canada, recently acquired one for my small collection, another one belongs to my friend. If you know or have any of those Russian Beauties please respond with your photos.

Here is mine, Mts-8-1:

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And this one belongs to my friend, Mts-8-0:

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Both are 1966 production

Hope you enjoy reading about this legendary shotgun.
 
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I've handled one of these guns. It is owned by an esteemed member of this site.

There's no doubt it's a robust and well made gun but the design isn't particularly, ahem, revolutionary. It's a modified Merkel pattern. Post WWII Suhl, the historic German gunmaking center, was under the Soviet boot in what was then East Germany. Merkel was in Suhl and the communists took the design (for the good of the state no doubt) and produced these guns.

The breach locking system is a version of the Kersten lock which is based on the Greener cross bolt, a design developed in England when the Tsars were still running Russia. The Soviets knew a good idea when they stole it.
 
Stealing the ideas in weapon production was ( and is ) a normal practice in this world.
You can always compare the systems you mentioned with MTs-8 above.

For those who not familliar:

Here is Merkel with Kersten lock
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And Greener below
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And even Scott cross bolt system:
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And MTs-8:
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Just see the similarities, who is first, who borrowed... :)

Yes, engineering ideas are similar, as you said, like for an amature observer all the tanks are using the same looking tracks, etc. Sure, influence of Merkel visible not only in the lock, look at non-detachable forehand bolted to barrels with 6 bolts...

However, main advantage of MTs-8 is in WHOLE design ( even if it was a re-design of existing system) - incredibly reliable, not holes but hooks, self-locking hinge, enormous surface of contact between moving parts of barrel and lock, fine tuning of EACH shotgun, lower locking prismatic plunger ( this one was new element), special construction of the hinge joint with embossed axis bases - all those factors are made this fantastic shotgun. And, again, Beretta borrowed the ideas from Russian Star Mts-8 ALMOST without change, right? Look how similar the locking mechanics... :)
I know, this is a very rare happen when Italian masters "borrowed" ideas from Russian master, but this one is just a reflection of their appreciation of the craftsmanship of Mts-8.
 
I've handled one of these guns. It is owned by an esteemed member of this site.

There's no doubt it's a robust and well made gun but the design isn't particularly, ahem, revolutionary. It's a modified Merkel pattern. Post WWII Suhl, the historic German gunmaking center, was under the Soviet boot in what was then East Germany. Merkel was in Suhl and the communists took the design (for the good of the state no doubt) and produced these guns.

The breach locking system is a version of the Kersten lock which is based on the Greener cross bolt, a design developed in England when the Tsars were still running Russia. The Soviets knew a good idea when they stole it.

I dunno, I'd say replacing the double Kersten's holes with hooks is about as revolutionary as moving the lockup lug from the centre of the barrel block on a SxS to astride the barrels on an O/U vis a vi the move from the Greener to double Kersten lockup. Lets face it, almost all "revolutionary" break actions are merely evolutions of an incredibly old design!
 
I dunno, I'd say replacing the double Kersten's holes with hooks is about as revolutionary as moving the lockup lug from the centre of the barrel block on a SxS to astride the barrels on an O/U vis a vi the move from the Greener to double Kersten lockup. Lets face it, almost all "revolutionary" break actions are merely evolutions of an incredibly old design!
Absolutely right!
BUT!
Ask yourself why, for example, Beretta did not use original Kersten lock? :)
Simple answer - testing is very exepnsive, and from the history Mts-8 is THE ONLY ONE SHOTGUN WHICH CAN PROVE TO WITHSTAND OVER 1 MILLION SHOTS!!! Do you want to follow the leader:) or spend few more millions on testing and redesign?
 
If you purchase a shotgun on the sole basis that it can fire one million rounds you may end up with one of these.

I think the Russians are shooting perazzi's like almost everyone else in international competition.
 
Yes, this what been said: after 1990s TsKIB was almost destroyed, production and quality fell, and since this time Russian team started to use Perazzi as almost everyone :)
However, and for some reason overall competition's results much lower now for Russia too... regardless of the very high shooter's ranks.
 
That's more to do with the ammo that the guns; they lowered the maximum load from 32 grams to 28 grams (basically 1-1/8th oz to 1 oz) in 1988, and then again from 28 grams to the current 24 gram (slightly less than 7/8 oz) standard in 1990. The ISSF's goal was to make the game more challenging, and it's certainly worked.
 
I've handled one of these guns. It is owned by an esteemed member of this site.

There's no doubt it's a robust and well made gun but the design isn't particularly, ahem, revolutionary. It's a modified Merkel pattern. Post WWII Suhl, the historic German gunmaking center, was under the Soviet boot in what was then East Germany. Merkel was in Suhl and the communists took the design (for the good of the state no doubt) and produced these guns.

The breach locking system is a version of the Kersten lock which is based on the Greener cross bolt, a design developed in England when the Tsars were still running Russia. The Soviets knew a good idea when they stole it.

"Esteemed member" lol
 
I dunno, I'd say replacing the double Kersten's holes with hooks is about as revolutionary as moving the lockup lug from the centre of the barrel block on a SxS to astride the barrels on an O/U vis a vi the move from the Greener to double Kersten lockup. Lets face it, almost all "revolutionary" break actions are merely evolutions of an incredibly old design!
In hinge guns most of them are incremental advancements on century-old English designs. This is particularly true of non-sidelock shotguns.

I think the Russians are shooting perazzi's like almost everyone else in international competition.
Pretty much. Soviet and Eastern Bloc shooters used what the government told them to or risk a trip to a labour camp. In that era no one used an MT8 who didn't have to. After the fall of the Evil Empire shooters there had the freedom to choose other guns most of them did.

If the design and workmanship were everything the OP claims they were then someone else would still be making them now. Nothing wrong with the gun however and the OPs are very nice. It is quite obvious he's very proud of them.
 
I'd say there's been a lot more advancement in the area of boxlock shotguns over the years... if anything, sidelocks are the ones that are pretty much unchanged.

Also, I don't think it's fair to use their usage, or lack thereof, as an indication of quality. It's not that anyone that didn't have to use one did, it's that anyone that didn't use one probably couldn't. The Soviet party wasn't exactly a big fan of sharing their equipment with the democratic world. Fact remains, they've won a ton of medals even up to 2000. I think the biggest reason they aren't still successful is precisely the same reason pretty much everyone struggles to topple Perazzi on the world stage: customer service. It's pretty hard to compete with Perazzi's willingness to wheel in a busload of gunsmiths at every world cup!
 
I'd say there's been a lot more advancement in the area of boxlock shotguns over the years... if anything, sidelocks are the ones that are pretty much unchanged.

Also, I don't think it's fair to use their usage, or lack thereof, as an indication of quality. It's not that anyone that didn't have to use one did, it's that anyone that didn't use one probably couldn't. The Soviet party wasn't exactly a big fan of sharing their equipment with the democratic world. Fact remains, they've won a ton of medals even up to 2000. I think the biggest reason they aren't still successful is precisely the same reason pretty much everyone struggles to topple Perazzi on the world stage: customer service. It's pretty hard to compete with Perazzi's willingness to wheel in a busload of gunsmiths at every world cup!
The boxlock and trigger plate designs still in use today date back to late 19th century England. Locking systems whether under lug, Boss style or cross bolt as well.

I agree that lack of useage doesn't indicate lack of quailty. The MT8 is a quality gun but it is by no means vastly superior. It is complete folly to suggest that if the MT8 were still available today that using Krieghoffs or Perazzis would be "inappropriate and inadequate."
 
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