Russian Berdan Rifle.

D

drm3m

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One of my regrets is that I did not photograph this Russian Berdan rifle more closely.

"Standard issue in the Russian army from 1870 to 1891, the Berdan was replaced by the Mosin–Nagant rifle".

The rifle shown at the top of this early 1960s photo I sold in 1966.



Before digital photography.
(I was leaving Canada for two years at that time---1966-68.)

I don’t remember where I got it or who I sold it to.

I know that Colt had some involvement with the early guns ….I don’t remember if it had Colt markings.

There were certainly Russian markings on the rifle.
I know nothing about these rifles other than what can be found on the Internet and what is indicated in the Berdan book shown below.

Does anyone have one?

Should I eat my heart out for having sold it.?

I relate to Berdan associated with the U.S. Civil War and his sharpshooters however the book shown below deals with the Russian guns.

David

Berdan during the U.S. Civil War.





An example off the Internet.



The Moisin-Nagant rifle that came after the Berdan rifle.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berdan_rifle


 
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What about the Austrian Werndl on the right. Not that common either. ;) Berdan's most lasting achievement was the primer system he developed. Almost universal outside North America, ironically.

Grizz
 
There were TWO Berdan rifles, known as the Berdan I and (would you believe?) the Berdan II.

Berdan I was a striker-fired lifting-block, similar in principle to those little "hoodlift" German .22s markde "Deutsche-Werk - Erfurt" that you run into sometimes. Colt made 15,000 of the Berdan I and shipped them to Russia.

Problem was that the thing was obsolete before it was made, so Russia set up and built the Berdan II, a bolt-action strongly derived from the '71 Mauser.

Both were in the Russian .42 Berdan cartridge.

Ye Old Hunter had these in the States with prices as low as $9.98. Here, they came through their agent, Albion Arms in Peterborough, at 20% more..... which is why I paid $11.97 for the Vetterli-Vitali 1870/87/915 which started my collection. By the time I had managed to save up for a Werndl and Berdan, I had to move to the West Coast...... which is where Lever Arms was, down on Dunsmuir Street. I never did find a Werndl or a Berdan, either one.

Fellow I worked with was in the Waffen-SS, told me that they encountered some old rifles in Russia with big bores, in the hands of the Russian troops in the early days of Barbarossa. These could have been Berdans giving their last hurrah.

One thing I do know for sure: you won't find any of those for $11.97 these days!
 
I have seen and handled one Berdan II in relatively good shape.It had very worn out bolt,mismatched to the rifle.

Rifle itself was good with frosted bore and really deep, nice rifling all the way to the muzzle.

Great rifle and I wish I could shoot it but it would take some time to adress bolt wear issues,not to mention making 42 Berdan ammo would be a challenge.

BTW-if anyone thinks MN rifles have short bolt handle look up Berdan bolt-its handle is about 2 inches long (or less).

Also on Berdan you will see why MN safety/cocking piece is the way it is.There is a very good reason for it.
 
So if I read this right, the Mosins were influenced or created with the help of Hiram Berdan? If so, this piece of information is lacking in all of the history of the Mosin I've read so far.
 
Help from Hiram Berdan well could have been second-hand. Sergei Ivanovich Moisin was working at the asrenal and BUILT his pilot rifle there.

Part of the reason that Russia accepted the Moisin-Nagant rifle was that it was something which Russia could actually build without having to buy specialised foreign tooling.

They used their old equipment, built their MN rifles on the tooling they had...... and spent their money with Grenwood and Batley - on a new factory to make the 3-line (7.6x54R) cartridge. G&B were one of the original contractors to the War Office to make the new .303 cartridge for the British Army, so now you know how the 7.62 round got that big huge Berdan primer!
 
I long sought a Berdan rifle for my collection, with the intent to shoot it and share the results. At this point, I'd be quite happy if someone else would do the same.

I shoot all my guns - why wouldn't others?
 
Grizzly Adams,

"What about the Austrian Werndl on the right. Not that common either."

In 1989 I traded the Werndl for a '61 Colt Navy revolver.
The Colt was manufactured in 1861 with an early serial number....hard to find so I was happy that I made the trade.

Serial number 3830 ---mfg'd early 1861....not a pristine piece ...but it was there.
Far harder to find than '51 Colt Navy revolvers.
The U.S Civil War started in 1861...did this '61 Colt Navy see service in that conflict....I have no idea.





The Werndl carbine was in very good condition as I recall.

My collecting was really starting to focus on U.S. Civil War stuff at that time

The dealer that I traded with had contacts in Europe....so it may have been sent there.
It is possible that I got the Berdan and Werndl at the same place in Montreal----Mendelson's Pawn shop on Craig Street.

David

My old Werndl carbine----far right. (Early 1960s photo)



The Werndl Carbine---NOT MY PHOTOs
I never knew very much about this carbine.





Some links regarding these Werndl guns.

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Sing... RIFLE.htm#AUSTRIAN_MODEL_1867_WERNDL_CARBINE

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Sing...ndl M.1877 Carbine/Werndl M.1877 Carbine.html
 
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Trading for different guns is what we collectors ‘sometimes’do.
As my collecting interests drifted toward U.S. Civil War stuff….in 1989 the Werndl carbine became part of a trade. (See previous posts.)

The Werndl Carbine on the right of this early 1960s photo.



This is what I traded for---Model 1861 Colt Navy revolver.....early 61 production. Serial number 3830.





In1989 and 1990 I was into '51 and '61 Colt Navies.
The '51 Colt Navy shown in the lower photo is a martial '51 Navy U.S. marked on the frame and 'M.M. inspector's cartouche (M. Moulton) on the left grip manufactured in 1857.

The '61 Colt Navy is shown on the top of the photo.



David
 
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I have yet to see or hold a Russian issued Berdan rifle in person but it would be an interesting experience to actually shoot one. Did the Russians produce the rifles locally or were they built on contract for the Russian army ?
 
Nabs said:
I have yet to see or hold a Russian issued Berdan rifle in person but it would be an interesting experience to actually shoot one. Did the Russians produce the rifles locally or were they built on contract for the Russian army ?
Click to expand...

Both, some were built on contract and some were built locally.

As far as shooting them goes, if they have a good bore and proper size paper patched bullet, they can be very accurate. Mine will hold into 6 inches at 200 yards, from a rest. It has a long for caliber bullet and of course a trajectory like a rainbow.
 
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