Rust or copper fowling

M

matt0214

New member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I had purchased a used tikka t3x and noticed a bit of rust on the end of the barrel. After cleaning it it went away but a bit of “staining” was left over in the groves not on the riffling. After a day at the range I cleaned it once again and noticed that the same markings I noticed is all around the original area. It’s the same color but the “new” rust would form from where? Or it’s simply copper fowling that I didn’t remove?
 
Last edited:
I can not say that I have experienced what you describe - it is typical that I would squirt in foaming WipeOut and let that set in the bore overnight or all day - then sometimes I scrub with bore brush, but often just push through with patches - if there is copper in there, the patches show blue - when they come out wet, but still white, I consider the bore to be clean. I am not sure what rust would look like on a patch - probably has to do with the particular solvent used? And I do inspect some of the chambers and bores with a bore scope. Probably the worst I dealt with was made in 1896 as per the roll stamp on the receiver - that one did not have light coming down the bore when I started - was days and days of soakings with various chemical - I think that one ended up to get a bit of 000 steel wool wrapped around a bronze bore brush - I have the tops of the rifling that now look "shiny" in places, but it is still "dark" in the grooves - I do not recall if I had the bore scope in that one or not - no real point, when issues are seen with naked eyeball.

Perhaps as an aside, I have become convinced there is no "one" type of cleaner for all bore contaminants - for example, I do not think what removes carbon well, will also remove copper fouling well. I think I have to use one substance to get out carbon rings, and another substance to get out the copper fouling. So I would doubt that what removes copper fouling, is the same as what removes rust? Of course, this is dealing with bores that may not have had any attention, at all, for decades - sometimes several decades, I think - they must have spent years in someone's closet or basement cupboard - just quietly corroding away on the inside. It might be different for what can build up on a particular day at the range.
 
Potashminer said:
I can not say that I have experienced what you describe - it is typical that I would squirt in foaming WipeOut and let that set in the bore overnight or all day - then sometimes I scrub with bore brush, but often just push through with patches - if there is copper in there, the patches show blue - when they come out wet, but still white, I consider the bore to be clean. I am not sure what rust would look like on a patch - probably has to do with the particular solvent used? And I do inspect some of the chambers and bores with a bore scope. Probably the worst I dealt with was made in 1896 as per the roll stamp on the receiver - that one did not have light coming down the bore when I started - was days and days of soakings with various chemical - I think that one ended up to get a bit of 000 steel wool wrapped around a bronze bore brush - I have the tops of the rifling that now look "shiny" in places, but it is still "dark" in the grooves - I do not recall if I had the bore scope in that one or not - no real point, when issues are seen with naked eyeball.

Perhaps as an aside, I have become convinced there is no "one" type of cleaner for all bore contaminants - for example, I do not think what removes carbon well, will also remove copper fouling well. I think I have to use one substance to get out carbon rings, and another substance to get out the copper fouling. So I would doubt that what removes copper fouling, is the same as what removes rust? Of course, this is dealing with bores that may not have had any attention, at all, for decades - sometimes several decades, I think - they must have spent years in someone's closet or basement cupboard - just quietly corroding away on the inside. It might be different for what can build up on a particular day at the range.
Click to expand...
In my scenario when I received the riffle there was 1 cm of rust in between the riffling, after cleaning it went away but I guess it left a stain. After I shot 50 rounds I cleaned it and noticed that same staining but now all over the barrel in the same area so I’m trying to understand if a) if it’s actually rust how can I take care of it or b) copper fowling that with proper solvents will clean out.
 
My solution to "rust" has been to soak it in something that prevents rust - like penetrating oil or home made "Ed's Red". Make up a container and stand your thing on it's muzzle in that container - fill perhaps a couple cm with fluid of choice - let that soak / work at least over-night - longer is better - that ought to "kill" any rust that is occurring. Copper fouling is like a plating on the bore - it rubs off from jacketed bullets sliding down the bore - so there are several solvents that will "soften" that copper - often easy enough to just push through with a snug patch. Some people will use a snug fitting "new" bore brush to scrub out that copper, but I think it ultimately needs an appropriate solvent and patches. Then you might need to deal with carbon - but that is more often near the chamber end, I think - I am not sure that I have heard of carbon deposits near a muzzle, in a bore.

It is pretty much up to you how fussy to get - with a bore scope, you might see remnants of "crap" in the right angle corners where the grooves meet the rifling - not really likely to see that with eye-ball (sometimes).
 
Potashminer said:
My solution to "rust" has been to soak it in something that prevents rust - like penetrating oil or home made "Ed's Red". Make up a container and stand your thing on it's muzzle in that container - fill perhaps a couple cm with fluid of choice - let that soak / work at least over-night - longer is better - that ought to "kill" any rust that is occurring. Copper fouling is like a plating on the bore - it rubs off from jacketed bullets sliding down the bore - so there are several solvents that will "soften" that copper - often easy enough to just push through with a snug patch. Some people will use a snug fitting "new" bore brush to scrub out that copper, but I think it ultimately needs an appropriate solvent and patches. Then you might need to deal with carbon - but that is more often near the chamber end, I think - I am not sure that I have heard of carbon deposits near a muzzle, in a bore.

It is pretty much up to you how fussy to get - with a bore scope, you might see remnants of "crap" in the right angle corners where the grooves meet the rifling - not really likely to see that with eye-ball (sometimes).
Click to expand...
Ok I understand now thank you, I appreciate your guidance and information. I’ll try to use a copper solvent to confirm what exactly my issue is.
 
OP, why do you think it's rust?

Potashminer knows his stuff, and he's telling you how to get rid of rust, but I don't believe that's what you're seeing.

You say it went away, then came back after shooting.

To me, unless you're shooting "corrosive" ammunition, rust isn't your issue.

You say you cleaned the "copper" fouling out of the barrel.

Every time you shoot a bullet down the bore, you will be leaving some thin washes of copper fouling in the bore, along with a bit of powder residue.

It sounds like you need an "eyes on" mentor.

Some folks insist on cleaning the copper fouling back to the steel after every shooting session. It's not a bad idea, if you've fired 30+ rounds during the session, or close to it. Some bores foul very easily and require cleaning with fewer rounds, some seem to be able to shoot almost indefinitely without worrying about fouling.

A good copper solvent, such as Wipe Out is what you need to use.

Follow the instructions on the can or bottle and you can clean the copper fouling out quite fast. I know, real men don't read instructions.

There are several other good copper cleaning products available so it's up to you.

What you're seeing, is NORMAL. It's going to happen every time you shoot the rifle.
 
My rust suspicion is because of the colour of it. I had my friend who’s experienced in this he looked in my barrel with a bore camera and confirmed to me that what I had seen at first was rust. He cleaned it for me and what was left was the “staining”. I shot about 40 rounds and the same “staining” I saw was now all around.
Is there a way to post the pictures of what I’m describing on here? It would best explain what I’m describing.
 
OP, if you are mainly going by the colour that you see, there is not a lot of difference between copper fouling and red rust. If you boil the red rust in water, some of it will turn to "black rust"- that is often called "bluing" - magnetite - a form of "rust" that is slightly different chemical composition versus "red" rust. When you start with freshly machined "steel", is typical that you are exposing a face of tightly packed iron and some carbon molecules. When "red rust" occurs, oxygen has combined with an iron molecule - maybe thousands or hundreds of thousands of instances of that. Oddly, perhaps, but "red" rust molecules tend to be larger than Fe2 molecules - meaning the red rust will probably erupt from the parent matrix. If you then use an abrasive to remove that "rust", you are also removing some Fe2 molecules - meaning the surface is no longer a "smooth" and "solid" matrix and might reflect light differently than it used to. That might be the "stain" that you are seeing, I think. Perhaps oddly, adding a second oxygen molecule - makes "black rust" - and that tends to be smaller physical size than red rust - sort of counter-intuitive that adding more components adds up to less volume - but the "black" rust typically will nestle back into the parent matrix - therefore, not getting so bad for pitting, but still throws the light differently than "fresh cut" steel.

I think of that scenario as why oil or grease prevents rusting - it creates a "skin" on the parent matrix that is mostly impervious to oxygen - keep the oxygen in air away from steel and you won't get rust.

A "stain", at least as I think of it, tends to be from something inserted into the parent matrix - not on top of it, but within it. Easy enough to conflate with difference in light reflections.
 
Kroil and JB bore paste. If your gun is shooting very well I wouldnt let it bother you. If not then have a competent smith take an inch off and recrown. Soak in Kroil and patch with JB should help.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm... When you remove rust, you are left with an irregular surface, commonly called "pitting". This is the stain you refer to, as it doesn't reflect light. Upon subsequent firings this surface will pick up powder residue and copper to varying degrees. You can waste a lot of time and energy trying to keep it clean. If the gun shoots....
 
kevin g said:
Just "click" the attach files button (( left and below in the chat box window))...then pick the pics you want to upload
Click to expand...
Ok thank you I was using my phone, I’m guessing it doesn’t give me the option. When I get the chance I’ll upload it in my computer.
 
Matt, how much "experience" does your mentor have?

Some of the stuff we hear from "experienced" folks comes out of their fantasies or perceptions, due to a severe lack of "experience"

Unless you're shooting "corrosive" ammunition, the only way you're going to get rust in that bore is if you managed to get water or a progressive copper solvent, such as Barnes CR10 or Sweet's 7.62. These are both very aggressive as well as progressive, in that they can't be left in your bore for long periods of time, say more than an hour, without causing damage. Both brands recommend cleaning them out with a regimen to remove any residues left by the solvents (ammonia).

Up until Wipe Out and now Canadian made "First Choice" came on the scene, the Barne's and Sweets products, along with abrasive pastes were about the only way to clean out the copper fouling.

There were other products, but they were extremely labor intensive.

There were also a myriad of "home made" concoctions, which usually involve ammonia, brake cleaner, or carburetor cleaner. Some were downright dangerous, to the shooter and the firearm. Toxic and corrosive describe it mildly.

Some rifles get by just fine without purposely removing the copper fouling, and all that is needed, is a good carbon solvent.

I have a Tikka T3, chambered for 6.5x55 which only requires the carbon to be cleaned out. Very little copper fouling, even with mono-metal bullets.

I did a very careful test with it, using Barnes TTSX bullets, and found that it was still very accurate after 150 shots, 5 shots/cool, after removing the carbon fouling every 50 shots. Even when I did a back to the steel cleaning with Wipe Out, there was very little "blue" copper indication on the patches.

Most rifles shoot best with at least one fouling shot, usually two, then they shoot well for at least another 20+ rounds before accuracy drops off from the fouling.

You've opened up a can of worms, by getting into this hobby. You have a long learning curve ahead of you.
 
While the OP does not mention the chambering of his Tikka, if it is in .308 Winchester, there was a bunch of "surplus" S&B bulk ammunition which was packed in green-painted wood boxes & instead of being marked 7.62 NATO, it was marked .308 Winchester. That ammunition was/ is loaded with corrosive primers. So was quite a bit of the cheap Chinese 308.
I've heard of some Chinese .223 ammunition that was also corrosive-primed.
Except for the current primer situation, it would be better to pass, as the ammunition in question was never noted for its accuracy, unless you just want to go BANG when the trigger is pulled.
 
bearhunter said:
Matt, how much "experience" does your mentor have?

Some of the stuff we hear from "experienced" folks comes out of their fantasies or perceptions, due to a severe lack of "experience"

Unless you're shooting "corrosive" ammunition, the only way you're going to get rust in that bore is if you managed to get water or a progressive copper solvent, such as Barnes CR10 or Sweet's 7.62. These are both very aggressive as well as progressive, in that they can't be left in your bore for long periods of time, say more than an hour, without causing damage. Both brands recommend cleaning them out with a regimen to remove any residues left by the solvents (ammonia).

Up until Wipe Out and now Canadian made "First Choice" came on the scene, the Barne's and Sweets products, along with abrasive pastes were about the only way to clean out the copper fouling.

There were other products, but they were extremely labor intensive.

There were also a myriad of "home made" concoctions, which usually involve ammonia, brake cleaner, or carburetor cleaner. Some were downright dangerous, to the shooter and the firearm. Toxic and corrosive describe it mildly.

Some rifles get by just fine without purposely removing the copper fouling, and all that is needed, is a good carbon solvent.

I have a Tikka T3, chambered for 6.5x55 which only requires the carbon to be cleaned out. Very little copper fouling, even with mono-metal bullets.

I did a very careful test with it, using Barnes TTSX bullets, and found that it was still very accurate after 150 shots, 5 shots/cool, after removing the carbon fouling every 50 shots. Even when I did a back to the steel cleaning with Wipe Out, there was very little "blue" copper indication on the patches.

Most rifles shoot best with at least one fouling shot, usually two, then they shoot well for at least another 20+ rounds before accuracy drops off from the fouling.

You've opened up a can of worms, by getting into this hobby. You have a long learning curve ahead of you.
Click to expand...
He has about 10 years experience in this hobby by no means an expert but enough to tell me what’s going on within my barrel.

I don’t believe my ammo was corrosive was shooting federal power shock 150 grain 7mm rem mag.

I will take notes of those products incase my copper fowling gets worse. For the time being as long it won’t cause damage by sitting there then I’m satisfied.

I’m excited to learn all about it, the constant learning is what attracts me to new things!
 
The 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge is a in the "higher pressure" ranges than most "standard cartridge loads" such as the 30-06.

They need the higher pressures to get the velocities generated by cartridge.

I have never heard of any 7mmRM cartridges loaded with "corrosive" primers.

That just leads me to to believe my first assessment, the "rust" you're seeing is jacket fouling (copper)

When you notice your groups getting large, when shooting from the bench, then it's time to clean out the fouling or you will just be wasting your ammunition and maybe decreasing the life of your bore.

Get a good, non progressive copper solvent and use it until your patches come out with a "gray" smudge/streak.

Good luck with this.

As for your mentor being a shooter for ten years, I'm not going to judge him, but I know several folks who've been shooting long than that and they're still on their fourth or fifth box of ammunition. Time does not make a shooter more experienced, unless it includes a lot of time behind the trigger and a lot of rounds downrange.
 
bearhunter said:
The 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge is a in the "higher pressure" ranges than most "standard cartridge loads" such as the 30-06.

They need the higher pressures to get the velocities generated by cartridge.

I have never heard of any 7mmRM cartridges loaded with "corrosive" primers.

That just leads me to to believe my first assessment, the "rust" you're seeing is jacket fouling (copper)

When you notice your groups getting large, when shooting from the bench, then it's time to clean out the fouling or you will just be wasting your ammunition and maybe decreasing the life of your bore.

Get a good, non progressive copper solvent and use it until your patches come out with a "gray" smudge/streak.

Good luck with this.

As for your mentor being a shooter for ten years, I'm not going to judge him, but I know several folks who've been shooting long than that and they're still on their fourth or fifth box of ammunition. Time does not make a shooter more experienced, unless it includes a lot of time behind the trigger and a lot of rounds downrange.
Click to expand...
Ok nice to hear that the ammo is non-corrosive, I'll try a copper solvent that should solve what I'm seeing. Thank you for your input I appreciate it.
I agree with you time doesn't reflect experience but he's shot at lest one thousand rounds so with all the people (excluding the forum) around me I take his word for it.
 
matt0214 said:
Ok nice to hear that the ammo is non-corrosive, I'll try a copper solvent that should solve what I'm seeing. Thank you for your input I appreciate it.
I agree with you time doesn't reflect experience but he's shot at lest one thousand rounds so with all the people (excluding the forum) around me I take his word for it.
Click to expand...
A "THOSAND" rounds is a "GOOD START" Right around where shooters "start" learning.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom