S&B 7.62x54R Brass = Crap?

[BC604]

Hi,

I just wanted to start reloading, Finally got all the equipment etc.
I also bought a few boxes of S&B ammo with the intention
of reloading them.

So tonight after the trip in the ultrasonic cleaner, I started to polish
and inspect the brass. I could hardly believe but almost all of the brass has
cracks on the neck. Some are very hard to see, others are very noticeable.

Is this a problem with S&B brass, or is it something wrong with the chamber
of my Mosin? I have never seen any of the steel cased surplus ammo
having any cracks on them.

I am really p****d right now, because I was really looking forward rolling my own.

What do you think? Is it crappy brass, or is it my rifle?

 

[Trigger_The_Rookie]

I've heard that many SVTs have fluted chambers. I can imagine that it's possible a Mosin could too. Just shine a light in there and have a peek.

PS rolling your own is actually lots of fun. I'm new to it and lovin it already. I'm not real fond of resizing/decapping though... What a PITA

 

[jfred]

I've heard several people on here say that the 7.62x54R brass put out by S&B has very brittle necks. This certainly seems to be the case from what you've described. The Mosin definitely doesn't have any flutes in the chamber.

Trigger, have you tried neck sizing instead of full length resizing? It's a bit less of a pain.

 

[LUTNIT]

Strange. Is it possible the chamber is oversized and the brass is expanding too much? Could also just be a more brittle lot of brass than normal. I have about 200 S&B cases fired through mine and a friends Mosins and I've found only a couple cracked necks. I anneal them and have gotten up to 4 firings with some of the brass and still no splits or cracks.

 

[teenahlake]

Strange. Is it possible the chamber is oversized and the brass is expanding too much? Could also just be a more brittle lot of brass than normal. I have about 200 S&B cases fired through mine and a friends Mosins and I've found only a couple cracked necks. I anneal them and have gotten up to 4 firings with some of the brass and still no splits or cracks.

My Thoughts exactly

 

[Rory McCanuck]

Yeah, something is not right there.
S&B brass is good stuff! I annealed it after firing the factory 180gr load, and then again after the 5th reload.
Only had one case go bad, and that was due to the jerk on the press handle

Measure the outside diameter of the neck on the fired brass and compare it to unfired.
Your old warhorse may be ready for the big green pasture in the sky.
You also may have just got a bad batch, hard to say.

Ooh, just a thought, are you sure they are cracked? S&B uses a pretty industrial stab crimp, and it really mangles the mouth.
Annealing, trimming and firing will iron them out somewhat, but they are nothing to worry about.

 

[BC604]

The external diameter of the new round is 0.3325, the fired brass external diameter is 0.337,
Is this excessive or is it within specs?

While I was taking the pictures I noticed that the factory crimp is
not uniform around the neck. It is hard to see in picture but it looks like it has
three places around the neck where it is not crimped properly.
After further examining the fired brass, some have multiple cracks corresponding
to those areas.

Is that the proper way it is supposed to be crimped, or did I get a bad batch?


It has three marks like this:

The cracks:

 

[LUTNIT]

The crimp is applied with a number of fingers that press the brass into the cannalure. On some brands it's 3 sections, on others it's 4. Some are rolled around the neck and have a slightly serrated edge instead of sections that are pressed in. If you notice the three spots not crimped should be at pretty much exactly 1/3 circumference intervals.

The OD isn't excessive at all so I'm thinking it may be a bad batch. Where all the boxes purchased together and possibly from the same lot? I'm thinking perhaps they weren't annealed properly and where more brittle than normal. While S&B brass isn't the best it is still quite good. Having such a large proportion of the cases split like that is odd.

 

[BC604]

The crimp is applied with a number of fingers that press the brass into the cannalure. On some brands it's 3 sections, on others it's 4. Some are rolled around the neck and have a slightly serrated edge instead of sections that are pressed in. If you notice the three spots not crimped should be at pretty much exactly 1/3 circumference intervals.

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say.

The OD isn't excessive at all so I'm thinking it may be a bad batch. Where all the boxes purchased together and possibly from the same lot? I'm thinking perhaps they weren't annealed properly and where more brittle than normal. While S&B brass isn't the best it is still quite good. Having such a large proportion of the cases split like that is odd.

I bought all boxes at the same time/place.

 

[bigedp51]

Your brass cracked at the crimped area where it was stretched and put under stress, my guess would be faulty annealing and hard brass. Second, in Enfield forums S&B brass gets a lot of negative comments BUT the Enfield .303 has a LARGE military chamber and the S&B brass is made to civilian CIP standards.

You asked if something is wrong with your chamber, I would say no, the problem is your civilian made S&B brass is not made to military standards.

On the American military M14 rifle the chamber is .0025 larger in diameter than its civilian SAAMI chamber diameter. This applies to all military rifles so remember military chambers are fatter and longer than there civilian counterparts.

Below a civilian SAAMI .303 British cartridge being fired in a military Enfield chamber and stretching beyond its design limits in the long fat military chamber.

You can run a very simple test and fire Remington, Winchester or any well known *north american made 7.62x54R cartridge and see if the same thing happens.

*I'm American and I'm not sure what brands you have in Canada, just don't use any that has duct tape on it.

 

[LUTNIT]

*I'm American and I'm not sure what brands you have in Canada, just don't use any that has duct tape on it.

But I hold together cracked hinges on plastic ammo boxes with duct tape!

I would try another brand or different lot of S&B. I haven't seen Win or Rem 7.62x54R ever in my travels but you can find Prvi around. You could also order Lapua brass for it but chances are the rifle isn't accurate enough to warrant that.

 

[Trigger_The_Rookie]

Great pictures!

Did anyone else notice that the case necks fireformed into a sloped shape?

JFred: Neck sizing... Am I correct in assuming that it is accomplished with a reloading die that decaps and neck sizes the case without affecting the main walls?

 

[skip1600]

In my experience with my svts and my mosins.. Your better off to buy milsurp because brass never lasts. It really leads me to believe the cartridge was designed with one time use in mine.. It seems like maybe the necks are oversized or commonly scarred .. What ever the case I've never got more than 2 firings out of any x54

 

[Cdn303]

Neck sizing... Am I correct in assuming that it is accomplished with a reloading die that decaps and neck sizes the case without affecting the main walls?

Yes. If you are shooting the same cartridge in differnet guns you will need segregate your brass, as they will be fire formed to each different chamber.

In my experience with my svts and my mosins.. Your better off to buy milsurp because brass never lasts. It really leads me to believe the cartridge was designed with one time use in mine.. It seems like maybe the necks are oversized or commonly scarred .. What ever the case I've never got more than 2 firings out of any x54

On a youtube channel I frequent, the guy figures he has gotten up past 10 reloads with most of his x54r brass (Lapua brass). He even thinks closer to 100 on a group that he was playing around with trailboss loads with.

While I can't quite believe the 100, the 10 is easy to believe, if you load below max, and anneal every 5 or so.

 

[skip1600]

I can't get past the factory load.. Same thing as the OP. split necks and in the svt about half the cases split right up the side. Maybe there is some common issues with my rifles that I haven't noticed.. I just shoot surplus .. When I find something that groups well in my mosin I keep it separate anything that shoots poorly goes into the svt pile, which as all svt owners know doesn't last long.

If someone finds a fix for these cases blowing out please post it as I'd like to reload for my red rifles, I already have the dies

 

[bigedp51]

If you can get Prvi Partizan then try it, for the .303 British I consider it excellent brass and it is near military grade.

 

[Rory McCanuck]

Great pictures!

Did anyone else notice that the case necks fireformed into a sloped shape?

Yeah, those are some really ugly looking snaggletooth mouths!

Anneal them, trim them past the crack and keep them separate for plinking loads?
If you can find decent new brass, I wouldn't bother, but if you have nothing else, you can fiddle around with them to make something work.

How much of this batch of ammo do you have?

 

[BC604]

I wanted to get Prvi Partizan to begin with, but no local store had it.
It looks like I will have to order it online.

Could you please explain that to me?
I'm new to reloading an this was supposed to be my first project;

Anneal them, trim them past the crack and keep them separate for plinking loads?
If you can find decent new brass, I wouldn't bother, but if you have nothing else, you can fiddle around with them to make something work.

Thank you everyone for helping.

 

[Rory McCanuck]

Brass is a relatively soft metal. Several things will make it harder, and that makes it brittle. Hammering or flexing will cause "work hardening," age and mercury from old primers will also harden it. Heating the brass up to about 750* will soften it again. Softer brass will be a little bit easier to trim, too.

To anneal your brass, heat the neck/mouth with a propane torch, and watch for a blue colour start to creep down.
When it gets down the shoulder, its done.
I hold the case in my bare hand, so I know for sure that the heat hasn't travelled down and softened the head area.
This is a great vid, done on a gas stove.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeRDAsrCfM

Trim them down to the same length, making sure you use the longest crack as your guide.
You won't be able to crimp them, but there's enough neck left to give you lots of neck tension.
Keep these as a separate batch from any new bras you get, and use them as "special" brass.
Reduced loads using H-4895 would be a great use for them.

 

[BC604]

Brass is a relatively soft metal. Several things will make it harder, and that makes it brittle. Hammering or flexing will cause "work hardening," age and mercury from old primers will also harden it. Heating the brass up to about 750* will soften it again. Softer brass will be a little bit easier to trim, too.

To anneal your brass, heat the neck/mouth with a propane torch, and watch for a blue colour start to creep down.
When it gets down the shoulder, its done.
I hold the case in my bare hand, so I know for sure that the heat hasn't travelled down and softened the head area.
This is a great vid, done on a gas stove.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeRDAsrCfM

Trim them down to the same length, making sure you use the longest crack as your guide.
You won't be able to crimp them, but there's enough neck left to give you lots of neck tension.
Keep these as a separate batch from any new bras you get, and use them as "special" brass.
Reduced loads using H-4895 would be a great use for them.

That is very interesting, I didn't know that the neck can be shorter.
What would be the shortest I could trim them to?
I still have a box of unfired rounds. I guess I should pull the bullets,
anneal the necks, and see if it makes a difference?

Thanks.