how she runs? accuracy, reliability, finish and overall quality? never held or seen one, only on internet..
im really interested in this rifle!
S&W mp15 5.56 vs norinco
- Thread starter hvmetalhead
- Start date
how she runs? accuracy, reliability, finish and overall quality? never held or seen one, only on internet..
im really interested in this rifle!
My wife and I just got back from our first three gun match, her shooting a S&W 'Sport' and me my tricked out Min 14. She had very little practice beforehand, her schedule not permitting much range time. I forced her to '0' at 100 yds prone days before the event and she fired 10 rds at 150 as well. I was not concerned about her ability to hit targets at 25 or 50 yds.
In our first stage of the day, we had to engage four 12" gongs at 189 yds, measured with a range finder. She hit them 1-2-3-4 using an unstable prop for support, the only person in our squad to do so and possibly the only one to do so in the match. I hit them all, but it took me a few more rds ..... ;>( Some guys quit after burning up a couple of mags.
In another stage, there were four 10" gongs at 75 yds. She took them from the kneeling/rest position, most men opting to miss them repeatedly by shooting off hand.
Her gun was the least tricked out AR 15 of any I saw, mods consisting of ambi controls, a rubber butt pad and a low end red dot sight. Oh, and a "Muddy Girl" camo job to match her hoody. Most other AR 15's were tricked out to the max with any and every accessory and sight option on the market. The skill level of the shooter did not necessarily match up with the rifle, as in most shooting sports.
I never saw a FA come into play once nor did anyone seem to benefit from a dust cover on the ejection port.
My scoped Mini 14 with Accu-Strut and flash hider shot flawlessly, but I learned the disadvantage of 5 rd magazines against 10+ rd magazines in competition. Is there a S&W 'Sport' model in my future - yadambetcha!
In our first stage of the day, we had to engage four 12" gongs at 189 yds, measured with a range finder. She hit them 1-2-3-4 using an unstable prop for support, the only person in our squad to do so and possibly the only one to do so in the match. I hit them all, but it took me a few more rds ..... ;>( Some guys quit after burning up a couple of mags.
In another stage, there were four 10" gongs at 75 yds. She took them from the kneeling/rest position, most men opting to miss them repeatedly by shooting off hand.
Her gun was the least tricked out AR 15 of any I saw, mods consisting of ambi controls, a rubber butt pad and a low end red dot sight. Oh, and a "Muddy Girl" camo job to match her hoody. Most other AR 15's were tricked out to the max with any and every accessory and sight option on the market. The skill level of the shooter did not necessarily match up with the rifle, as in most shooting sports.
I never saw a FA come into play once nor did anyone seem to benefit from a dust cover on the ejection port.
My scoped Mini 14 with Accu-Strut and flash hider shot flawlessly, but I learned the disadvantage of 5 rd magazines against 10+ rd magazines in competition. Is there a S&W 'Sport' model in my future - yadambetcha!
I bought a Norinco 14.5" for my first AR, I bought it because it was only $530 and I'd never owned one before. Less than 2 weeks later I bought the M&P 15 sport, the biggest difference is in the fit and finish, the Norinco is like and AK it was designed to take a beating and chew up any and all ammo. I've put 3-400 rounds through it so far without issue, it's clunky and the trigger feels like it's a little gritty, not the smoothest but it makes holes in paper. I realized after shooting it for the first time that it wasn't worth putting $1000 worth of upgrades into, that would be like putting lipstick on a pig, so I'm putting a cheap red dot on it and it will just be an ammo chewer. When my buddies teenagers come to the range they can bang off a few hundred rounds and I don't care if it gets scuffed up it was only $530.
I bought the M&P because for the extra $300-$400 there is quite a noticeable difference in fit and finish as well as quality, not just with Smith but with other brands as well, my buddy bought a DPMS and it's quite a bit better fit and finish and shoots better as well. I've put 1000 rounds through my M&P 40 and I love it, I've shot quite a few pistols including Glocks and Berettas and hands downs it's my favourite! I'm in the process of getting some parts to upgrade the M&P, I don't feel like it's a waste to add $800 or $900 in upgrades to make it look the way I want. A lot of people on here will tell you you have to spend $2000-$3000 to get a decent AR but for my shooting abilities and realistic expectations as far as the Norc or Smith go I think this is more than enough to start.
Conclusion? In my opinion if you want something you can throw a cheap red dot on and hit a man sized target up to 200 yards the Norinco is just fine. However if you want something that you can learn to be a better shooter with and trick out with some after market goodies I'd go with the M&P.
I bought the M&P because for the extra $300-$400 there is quite a noticeable difference in fit and finish as well as quality, not just with Smith but with other brands as well, my buddy bought a DPMS and it's quite a bit better fit and finish and shoots better as well. I've put 1000 rounds through my M&P 40 and I love it, I've shot quite a few pistols including Glocks and Berettas and hands downs it's my favourite! I'm in the process of getting some parts to upgrade the M&P, I don't feel like it's a waste to add $800 or $900 in upgrades to make it look the way I want. A lot of people on here will tell you you have to spend $2000-$3000 to get a decent AR but for my shooting abilities and realistic expectations as far as the Norc or Smith go I think this is more than enough to start.
Conclusion? In my opinion if you want something you can throw a cheap red dot on and hit a man sized target up to 200 yards the Norinco is just fine. However if you want something that you can learn to be a better shooter with and trick out with some after market goodies I'd go with the M&P.
^x2, having shot two different Norinco AR's was enough to turn me off the brand, not too mention the few times I've handled them in the stores. They just come across as a poor substitute for the real thing (poor tolerances, fit and finish), but I shouldn't really complain as that is exactly what they are. It's the same reason I don't shoot my SKS much, just prefer a little better quality in my hands. If however that type of thing doesn't bother you then by all means give a Norinco a go as they do seem to hold their value well probably due to the fact that there is always a market for the cheapest of things.
The Smith 15 I've not yet shot, however from holding and inspecting one in person more then once I think for the price you really can't go wrong and it just might be my next AR for friends and family to use when at the range.
My experiences with AR's (and any firearm for that matter) and by that I mean when particularly experiencing troubles at the range with strangers and friends alike; it almost always stem from poor maintenance with the particular firearm giving the shooter trouble (mostly due to a lack of lubrication). The next biggest issue from my experience would be with magazines followed by ammunition.
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So, you're in a position to judge based on sample sizes of, respectively one and two units. As the former owner of 2 Colts and the builder of 2 AR's and former owner of a Norinco, I have no clue what "they come across as poor substitutes for the real thing" means when talking about Norinco guns. Are they less well finished? Yup, do they work? Yup. I do know that the only S&W M&P15 I ever handled had the worst gas key staking job I've ever seen on it - virtually non-existant, and a loose gas key will severely alter your shooting plans for the day. (no it wasn't Loc Tite'd either, it was just crap) does that mean they all do? Nope, it just means that one did. I put 3,000 rounds through my Norc - between running it on the Norc lower and on an Armalite lower that I built. There was not one failure in either configuration. Now, that said, as noted, the PSA is a better buy.
I love out shooting American made AR's with my "Chinese crap". To the OP if the couple hundred bucks won't break you then get what you want. I know they're not needed but I cannot get past the lack of dust cover or forward assist but that's just me.
For a first AR I don't think the OP could go wrong by buying the Norc, a couple of magazines, and some ammo for the price of the Smith & Wesson.
The fit and finish on the earlier Norcs was less than perfect, but the new one (made in 2013) is quite an improvement over what they used to be. The trigger ain't the greatest, and the sights could use some work to make them move easier, but I've got over 200 rnds of AE223 ammo through mine and not one hiccup yet.
I used to have a Colt AR15A2 Delta Elite package (sold it 'cause I was offered too much money to say no-I have a real weakness for selling things for lots more than I paid for it) and it had great fit and finish, an excellent trigger, and no hiccups-BUT it was no more accurate than my new Norc.
As for the forward assist, I don't think it's needed now, and for a range toy, the ejection port cover isn't really needed either.
The Norc can be found on sale at Marstar right now for $529, and the S&W will typically run in the mid $800's. Three hundred bucks can buy at least 500 rounds of ammo and a mag or two......
The OP can't go wrong either way IMO.
The fit and finish on the earlier Norcs was less than perfect, but the new one (made in 2013) is quite an improvement over what they used to be. The trigger ain't the greatest, and the sights could use some work to make them move easier, but I've got over 200 rnds of AE223 ammo through mine and not one hiccup yet.
I used to have a Colt AR15A2 Delta Elite package (sold it 'cause I was offered too much money to say no-I have a real weakness for selling things for lots more than I paid for it) and it had great fit and finish, an excellent trigger, and no hiccups-BUT it was no more accurate than my new Norc.
As for the forward assist, I don't think it's needed now, and for a range toy, the ejection port cover isn't really needed either.
The Norc can be found on sale at Marstar right now for $529, and the S&W will typically run in the mid $800's. Three hundred bucks can buy at least 500 rounds of ammo and a mag or two......
The OP can't go wrong either way IMO.
So based on your first sentence a shooter has to shoot many, many different rifles to have an opinion? As for what I didn't like I stated fit and finish (poor tolerances), just as you state less well finished. So I guess your opinion is worthless as you've only shot one Norinco and it had an Armalite lower for some of the time. Just because a firearm doesn't have a failure doesn't mean it isn't a piece of crap, some of the worst firearms I've ever shot were reliable. That one Smith you looked at while only being one rifle does give you a fair understanding of their quality. Having a poorly staked gas key is a clue that the Smith is in the bargain section of AR's and that they are not of a high quality. Do they all come like that maybe, even probably as they are all built to the same specifications. If the OP wants to buy with a better chance of having a quality rifle they should probably spend a minimum of $1,200 to $1,500 and even then there are no guarantees.
So how many dozen PSA's have you shot to be able to say they are a better buy?
So 2 posts ago you talk about the Smith as maybe being your next AR ( for friends and family, how dare they touch your baby...) and then you say they are low quality having never shot one, and assuming because someone "inspected" one that had a defect they must all be like that... Have you seen the thread for the guy that bought the Christienson Arms one for $3,600 and it's a POS????
Sick and tired of the f***ing gun snobs on this site that snub their nose at anything that isn't expensive.
Sick and tired of the f***ing gun snobs on this site that snub their nose at anything that isn't expensive.
hvmetalhead
Regular
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I simple asked the question because I want to get into ar shooting but I am on a budget
I own a couple norinco pistols and I love them. Finish could use some work the double action trigger can be heavy but they shoot, shoot straight, and shoot when I want them to. And at $300 it was a good enough price that I could afford the accessories I wanted and still not bpaying the price of a new sig.
But I also asked about what seems to me to be a midrange weapon.
I never meant to start forum war three
I own a couple norinco pistols and I love them. Finish could use some work the double action trigger can be heavy but they shoot, shoot straight, and shoot when I want them to. And at $300 it was a good enough price that I could afford the accessories I wanted and still not bpaying the price of a new sig.
But I also asked about what seems to me to be a midrange weapon.
I never meant to start forum war three
I have the norc, which is my first AR.
Yes there is some wobble between the upper and lower. But since all of the action happens in the upper I fail to see why this is a big deal.
I scoped mine, and it is still more accurate with Chinese surplus than I am. 600+ rounds down the pipe and not one failure.
I clean it when I have time, and even that is not a big deal because I use wheel bearing grease on the innards (YouTube advice) of the bolt, and no residue seems to build up.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a decent gun.
I put a new handguard and trigger in mine, because I could. Dressed it up a bit because I could. Don't plan on selling it.
You have norc guns, so you know what they are about: built for function, not refinement. Their AR is no different, and it's certainly more shootable out of the box than my M-305 was. Clean it, grease it, shoot it.
Everything else is fluff and bother
Yes there is some wobble between the upper and lower. But since all of the action happens in the upper I fail to see why this is a big deal.
I scoped mine, and it is still more accurate with Chinese surplus than I am. 600+ rounds down the pipe and not one failure.
I clean it when I have time, and even that is not a big deal because I use wheel bearing grease on the innards (YouTube advice) of the bolt, and no residue seems to build up.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a decent gun.
I put a new handguard and trigger in mine, because I could. Dressed it up a bit because I could. Don't plan on selling it.
You have norc guns, so you know what they are about: built for function, not refinement. Their AR is no different, and it's certainly more shootable out of the box than my M-305 was. Clean it, grease it, shoot it.
Everything else is fluff and bother
Just remember Norks are cheaper for a reason. They are not equivalent to any US made AR15, not even close really.
From fit and finish, quality of alloy and steels used, tolerances from rifle to rifle will all be lacking in the Nork. It will likely WORK fine if that is your only concern though.
From fit and finish, quality of alloy and steels used, tolerances from rifle to rifle will all be lacking in the Nork. It will likely WORK fine if that is your only concern though.
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......yep, the money I saved has gone into cosmetics (vortex red dot, SLC2 comp, ALG ACT trigger, Fab defense pistol grip, and (otw) butt stock from Zahal) and ammo for practice. 1200+rds so far and every one of them has went boom. Norc CQ is still more accurate than I am, but I'm learning. Would I trade my "first time" for a different (more expensive) AR? Probably not. Will I buy a more expensive one ? When i can justify it. Would I buy another Norc at this point? Yes I would. Haters gonna hate, its just the way of the game.
That, right there, is the core of the problem. Both Norcs I've owned (14.5 and 10.5) were reliable and accurate (as accurate as I am - 2 inches at 100 unsupported). Was the finish even -no. Was there upper to lower wobble, yes but one of my Colts was worse so that's kind of moot, isn't it, and I've seen C7's and C8's that were worse. Did my Norcs accept a free float rail, yes. Did my Norcs accept a Stag LPK that I had on the bench, yes. Did the trigger improve with use, yes. Was the FSB properly fixed, yes. Was the headspace correct, yes. Did the rifles accept all GI, 10 round pistol and PMags, yes. Was the gas key properly staked, yes. Was the gun rebuildable with common AR parts (in the event of wear) yes. Were all of the fittings and fixtures replaceable with aftermarket - all except handguards.(I had fitted a rail, so really.....). Was the top rail to spec, yes. Was I able to swap out the receiver extension for a Milspec one, yes. Was I able to fit an aftermarket stock on the original commercial one, yes. Did the iron sights work, yes.
Same here - I'll buy a higher end one when I see one I like, when I can afford it, but if there was a killer deal on a different norc I'd be cool with another.
Next on my wish list is a .50 Beo upper. I'd run it on the norc lower until I could build one myself, probably out of one of those whimsical aero precision ones (pew pew or huckleberry)
I believe it is a 4140 equivalent, but can confirm next time I am in touch with them.
Oh my God, are you guys for real. The OP asked about the Norc and Smith and I gave not only my opinion, but what it was based on (so take it for what it is). So because I don't like the Norc's quality or lack there of I get blasted for just saying how I feel about what the OP asked.
Then I go on to say that the way you find one rifle is an example of all of them and get roasted for believing that to be a true (are not all new products made to be almost exactly alike? is it not logical to assume if one product is found to be made a certain way that all are likely to be built of similar quality?). I never said the Smith was an excellent rifle only that I prefer it over the Norc even at at a cost of of as few hundred dollars more I would be willing to buy it.
If you read the Christensen Arms POS thread you would recognize I posted up on it. Yes I have had problems with many top tier brands from all types of products over my lifetime, but I've had a lot more issues with lower quality items by far. Buying high end doesn't mean there won't be issues, but the odds between a low quality product and a higher quality product having issues will not be remotely the same when it comes to quality control (if this were true there would not be high end products at all as everything would just be similar with respect to quality).
The Smith although a budget minded AR comes across to me as a better investment then the Norc. is it perfect no, but I wouldn't mind spending good money upgrading a product like the Smith as it just feel better and is made in North America. That the Norc will always be considered low quality (To Me) is not only due to where it's made, but mostly because of how it doesn't feel good in my hands. It's the same reason I won't spend any money upgrading my SKS, it just comes across as a low grade item. Is my SKS reliable yes, does everything work on it as it should yes is it a quality feeling tool in my hands no. Perhaps it's because I've preferred to use decent quality items in my life, it's just what I prefer whether it be firearms, cars, boats, motorcycles, scuba gear, knives, racquets, camping gear, archery equipment, power tools, hand tools, watches, sunglass', clothing and footwear etc. higher quality items generally exude a better feeling when being used (whether it's because they are lighter, stronger, faster, more reliable/durable etc. there is an advantage to quality and that also applies to resale values holding better on average).
I'm a big believer in quality over quantity and would rather wait until I can afford the higher quality product (I'm not some wealthy person) as I'm often been disappointed when buying lower quality items (like my SKS even though it works reliably ever time I use it, I do not enjoy it so much due to what I feel is a product that is more inferior then I would prefer).
I didn't start this War, I just gave my opinion and others posted up complaining about it. If others don't like what another CGN'er posts in someone else's thread they should keep it to themselves because there are always many other factors that are beyond any one person's understanding.
It is up to the OP to wade through the replies and take what he/she can from them, others shouldn't whine and complain about another CGN'ers opinion that is different from their own as it's just their opinion nothing more nothing less.
Oh yeah, it appears other CGN'ers are agreeing with me that the Smith is better deal at about 2 to 1.
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