S&W Pistol carbine legalities?

Michael J

Michael J

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Well, i havent gotten around to doing the rpal test and all that stuff yet, but it is on my list of things to do :D.

In the mean time, i am stuck to the realm of non-r's , so i am wondering, are revolvers restricted by action, name, or barrel length/OAL? I did a couple searches regarding "carbine" and "rifle" without luck, sorry if this is already covered.

I have some family connections to an out-of-country S&W factory, and if i were to have them manufacture a "revolver-carbine" at the factory, would it be possible to have it imported as a non-restricted?

I was thinking something like this, except using S&W's model 500. And however short i can get the barrel while still keeping it non-r (if that is possible).
model_Carbine_357_big.jpg


Before any of you go nuts, i will eventually get my rpal and some actual revolvers, probably not that great of a caliber though ;). I just thought a non-restricted variant would be nice to have to take out hunting or something, and the stock allow me to shoot .500 s&w without possibly hurting myself :redface:.
 
There are non-restricted revolver carbines sold in Canada. But they are factory original carbines.
Whether a revolver (ordinarily restricted) could be converted and imported as non-restricted, who knows?
There was a company in the US making a carbine on the Ruger .22 auto pistol with a permanently attached buttstock. The RCMP would not accept it as non-restricted. They will also not accept reclassification of a pistol as non-restricted, no matter what is done to it, if it has been registered as restricted in Canada.
In your photo, there is a little forend on the barrel. Guess why you would never hold it with your support hand?
 
Marstar has (or used to have) a .45 colt single action revolver carabine...

manufacturing/importing a gun like that would take a long time and probably would't be cheap! you're better off getting your RPAL or if you want something in .500S&W now I think H&R/New Englad fireamrs make a somewhat compact .500 rifle.
 
tiriaq said:
....In your photo, there is a little forend on the barrel. Guess why you would never hold it with your support hand?
Click to expand...

Not having his RPAL yet I'm guessing that he hasn't fired many handguns let alone a 500S&W.

Michael, can you say "sheet of high pressure flaming gas from the cylinder gap that cuts like a razor"? One of the things they mention and work on in the RPAL course is how to grip semis and revolvers so that your delicate digits avoid the danger areas.

And either way a gun that is long enough to be a non-res is not going to feel or handle at all like a handgun. So why even try to jump all these hoops to get one? Spend that time and money on getting your RPAL instead.
 
I plan on getting my rpal anyways, but this is something that did interest me.

I have not shot many revolvers, well 2 at a gun club one night, and thats it. One of the older guys there let me give it a try after target shooting. Both were .22, but i never knew of what you were saying about the front grip, that could be an issue... Restricted or not (if restricted i'd go for the shortest barrel legally possible) I'd still opt to install a stock of some sort, even if a removable one.

Tiriaq:
Being a factory original, there is atleast a small % chance it could be classed as non-r? I guess it doesn't really matter too much, as it would be more of a novelty than practical seeing as the gas shooting out the front end would make gripping it impossible. And i would be wary to shoot something i have too much money into!


Thank you for the replies guys, now i can see why revolver-carbines were never really too developed. I know i've seen a few antique looknig ones, but it's pretty much limited to that (i'm guessing blackpowder and not smokeless).
 
Actually KAC made a carbine based loosely on a Ruger 44 mag - but in typical KAC fashion, it was also silenceable and made for a particular client.
 
Probably the most common revolving cartridge carbine would be the Italian one with Colt style frame. There is also a C&B replica of the Remington.
There is no reason that a factory made revolving carbine would not be non-restricted.
 
If this relative lives in the US then you're going to have to jump a LOT of hoops and do a lot of paperwork to get it out of the US. The US does not like exporting arms at the moment without a lot of extra paperwork.

If you genuinely want a very unique revolver carbine then again I'll suggest that by far the easier way to get it is to put your time and money into just getting your RPAL and then buy a revolver. Then get a woodworker to make up the carbine stock. It won't convert your restricted revolver to a non restricted but it'll let you use it as one and it'll be a unique firearm.... just pass on the foregrip and plan on your support had holding the bottom of the pistol grip portion.

Go with a Ruger planform. The slip in frame style will fit a custom carbine stock far easier than the full size grip area frame of a S&W. If you could find a Super Redhawk with the scope mounts and longer barrel it would adapt into a fantastic carbine project.

On the sheet of gasses coming out. There's a guy on YouTube somewhere that in a silly moment put his thumb along the bottom of the frame and the gasses from the .357 Mag round cut deeply into the fingerprint pad of his thumb and forced up the inner fatty tissues up through the cut like a surgeon's scalpel cut in and pried up. And that was with his thumb alongside the base of the frame so there was a little distance involved. There's another popular site with pictures of someone that did much the same with a S&W 500 and it totally split the end of the thumb apart like someone hit it with an axe. More locally the range I shoot at a lot has carpeting on the separator walls. Someone leaned their hands up against the barrier to act as a bench rest to steady their aim. 5 shots later the carpeting was melted and burst into flame as well as being cut like someone slashed it with a hatchet. It even cut into the plywood under the carpeting. The operators had to replace the piece. The cylinder gap gasses from any center fire revolver need to be treated with a high degree of respect and nothing you want to keep should be in that plain or anywhere closer than a couple of feet away.
 
BCRider said:
If this relative lives in the US then you're going to have to jump a LOT of hoops and do a lot of paperwork to get it out of the US. The US does not like exporting arms at the moment without a lot of extra paperwork.

If you genuinely want a very unique revolver carbine then again I'll suggest that by far the easier way to get it is to put your time and money into just getting your RPAL and then buy a revolver. Then get a woodworker to make up the carbine stock. It won't convert your restricted revolver to a non restricted but it'll let you use it as one and it'll be a unique firearm.... just pass on the foregrip and plan on your support had holding the bottom of the pistol grip portion.

Go with a Ruger planform. The slip in frame style will fit a custom carbine stock far easier than the full size grip area frame of a S&W. If you could find a Super Redhawk with the scope mounts and longer barrel it would adapt into a fantastic carbine project.

On the sheet of gasses coming out. There's a guy on YouTube somewhere that in a silly moment put his thumb along the bottom of the frame and the gasses from the .357 Mag round cut deeply into the fingerprint pad of his thumb and forced up the inner fatty tissues up through the cut like a surgeon's scalpel cut in and pried up. And that was with his thumb alongside the base of the frame so there was a little distance involved. There's another popular site with pictures of someone that did much the same with a S&W 500 and it totally split the end of the thumb apart like someone hit it with an axe. More locally the range I shoot at a lot has carpeting on the separator walls. Someone leaned their hands up against the barrier to act as a bench rest to steady their aim. 5 shots later the carpeting was melted and burst into flame as well as being cut like someone slashed it with a hatchet. It even cut into the plywood under the carpeting. The operators had to replace the piece. The cylinder gap gasses from any center fire revolver need to be treated with a high degree of respect and nothing you want to keep should be in that plain or anywhere closer than a couple of feet away.
Click to expand...

Actually distant relatives own a factory that manufactures S&W firearms, in the philippines, however i still must sort out their exporting laws. Things there are relatively cheap, I could probably have a custom gun built for little more than the parts costs (as labor is cheap). I'd like to bring back a couple stock revolvers, but this is a project that interests me, and could have it done without much issue (aside from export/import).

I never knew of the gasses, but that will pose a massive problem for sure! I'd have to find an alternate means of attaching, perhaps a vertical foregrip...
 
Foregrip? What about NO grip? I don't think you truly understand what this sheet of hot gases is like that shoots out the cylinder gap of any of the Magnum or large bore revolvers. It's also not always just gases. Particles of burning powder along with shavings of copper or lead are also commonly included if the cylinder bores do not completely line up with the forcing cone. There's just no way you want any body part extending through this ripsaw effect. No sort of vertical foregrip will move your arm safely out of harms way. You will want to keep both hands strictly on the rear pistol grip.

Since you're in Langely I suggest you drive into PoCo and head into DVC Ventures ( www.indoorshootingcentre.com ) and spend a few bucks on trying a shot or two from the .44Mag, .460S&W and the 500S&W. In addtion to the hand held revolvers in these three calibers they also have a Thompson Center Encore single shot rifle chambered in 500S&W with a short barrel. I'd suggest you try that as well. They are all a huge amount of fun, and in your case good for educational purposes, but it comes at a cost. But if you're serious about the idea of this custom revovler carbine I'd say the cost per round will be money well spent. It's $8 a shot but if it saves you from a sliced forearm due to just not knowing then it'll be money well spent. The last shot or two from the Encore would help you understand what the carbine will feel like when chambered in a big bore caliber.
 
BCRider said:
Foregrip? What about NO grip? I don't think you truly understand what this sheet of hot gases is like that shoots out the cylinder gap of any of the Magnum or large bore revolvers. It's also not always just gases. Particles of burning powder along with shavings of copper or lead are also commonly included if the cylinder bores do not completely line up with the forcing cone. There's just no way you want any body part extending through this ripsaw effect. No sort of vertical foregrip will move your arm safely out of harms way. You will want to keep both hands strictly on the rear pistol grip.

Since you're in Langely I suggest you drive into PoCo and head into DVC Ventures ( www.indoorshootingcentre.com ) and spend a few bucks on trying a shot or two from the .44Mag, .460S&W and the 500S&W. In addtion to the hand held revolvers in these three calibers they also have a Thompson Center Encore single shot rifle chambered in 500S&W with a short barrel. I'd suggest you try that as well. They are all a huge amount of fun, and in your case good for educational purposes, but it comes at a cost. But if you're serious about the idea of this custom revovler carbine I'd say the cost per round will be money well spent. It's $8 a shot but if it saves you from a sliced forearm due to just not knowing then it'll be money well spent. The last shot or two from the Encore would help you understand what the carbine will feel like when chambered in a big bore caliber.
Click to expand...

Okay, this makes sense, i'll have to go check it out over there this summer. I'm guessing the gas is released at a great angle (between 90-180 degrees?) out of the front area?
 
Yeah, it comes out as a sideways vertical sheet from the front face of the cylinder. The only two spots that are "safe" are the area directly above the top strap and directly below the bottom strap. And those are really narrow points.

If you haven't shot much handgun I'd start off with a box of .38Spl and then maybe see if they'll sell you just a cylinder worth of .357 Mag. Then move to maybe a cylinder of .44 Magnum (they sell those on a per shot basis for sure) and finally a round each from the .460 and 500 revolvers and finish up with a round or two from their TC Encore in 500 S&W. By that time you'll know if you want to go ahead with this project or not or if you want to zero in on one caliber or another.

Not trying to be mean or anthing but until then I'm afraid it's pretty clear from this thread that you really don't fully appreciate what you're getting into.
 
Just to make sure you understand, in the following picture, if the person were to fire the gun holding it in such a way, his (her?) thumb would probably get severed at the proximal phalange. The cylinder gap referred to is the small gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone (the beginning of the barrel):

ATT92879.jpg
 
Thank you Cerdan for the picture, it helps me understand the location of the gas release.

No i did not know fully (which is good that i have been informed through this thread), BCRider, you have saved me huge headache and future injury, thank you.
I think i will take your advice and try out the different calibers, get a feel for them for sure. The greatest i have ever shot would be a tiny 9mm (from a luger), and that gave me a surprise kick the first i shot it. Hopefully after firing off some different calibers, i can choose the right one for my "shooting pistol" after i get my rpal.


edit for below post: I feel excited, despite the limitations of pistol ammunition, i think it would still be cool to have a non-restricted "pistol" for hunting and shooting with wherever i please. I hope they don't make me go with some 18.5" barrel though, i'm hoping as it will have been made by the "manufacturer" i could have it a bit smaller, but still long enough to comply with OAL restrictions (I'll have to figure out the legalities of just how tiny i can make the barrel and oal later, probably just search the answers here or something).
 
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If you just want a nice small non restricted to shoot then go for a Puma lever rifle in the 16 inch carbine barrel length in .44Magnum or .454 Casull. I've seen them at a local store and they are sweet. It also gets around the whole cylinder gap issue. And it would be a darned sight cheaper.

But granted it definetly would not be as unique.
 
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