sabot vs rifled slug stopping power

xcaribooer

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I would like some opinions on the stopping power for predator defence of a 12ga rifled slug shot from a cylinder bore vs a sabot slug shot from a rifled bore , lets assume barrels are same length.
I know the sabot will have better long range accuracy but what about the energy of each withing 25 yards? , will the much larger diameter of the rifled slug give it an advantage or will the longer narrower sabot have the advantage by deeper penetration?

*edit, I see after trying to compare the two on the federal ammo site that sabot are generally lighter than rifled slugs.
 
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Take a quick look on any ammunition mfg's website.

Rem as an example.

Their accu-tip sabots are 385 grains (so essentially a 385 grain "pistol" bullet wrapped in a sabot). **must be shot from a fully rifled barrel - forget the rifled tube, you won't get the performance they advertise (or anywhere near it))

Compare that to a 1oz (438'ish grains) of the lead slug.

The "thump" from the "slower/heavier" slug (1760 fps at the muzzle) will be greater than the sabot (slug impacts @ 25 yards with over 2500 ft/lbs, the sabot making just a little "under" 2000 ft/lbs), but the sabot will fly straighter (starting out at 1900 fps at the muzzle), drop less (all relative, it's a shotgun after all) and penetrate deeper with controlled expansion.

Just curious since you mention "predators" - why would you use either the slug or a sabot - unless the "predator" is a bear, a big bear, you would be far better off (and more likely to hit what you are shooting at) with buckshot in 25 yard range you note.
 
the predator I would be more concerned with is grizzlies , trying to lay claim to your moose kill or "off season" hiking in grizzly country or just to have around moose camp in general.
it seems that the sabot/rifled barrel combo is more for deer hunting and the rifled slug/smooth bore combo is better for up close work
 
I can tell you from experience with deer, inside that 75yrd range the old rifled foster puts more umpf into the thump. Beyond 75 yards the velocity of something like a SSTwins the energy battle. Used to kill all my deer with fosters and it is the hammer of Thor on deer at the ranges above. With the SST I have had deer run 50 -75yrds after a well placed boiler room shot from as close as 25yrds. The knock down power of the rifled slug is where I would put my money for big bear defence.
 
Brenneke gold 3" mag 600 gr full bore slug is what you want if you go rifled barrel. Challenger slugs work great in both smooth and rifled barrels. They're hard lead and penetrate deep and are full bore slugs. At close range most saboted slugs flatten right out. Great for deer not angry bears
 
this is a good thread for me to find out more info

rifled slugs go in what firearm?
i have a 3 1/2 inch chambered semi auto shotgun

i am looking for some slugs,so what would i need?
what choke would i use?
what sort of range are they good for?
how many shells can i have in the tube? (i am in sask if that makes any difference)
 
I have no idea which would be better for bear defense. You mentioned that the Forster type slugs are typically heavier than the sabots, but keep in mind that the forster type slugs are soft cast lead and may not penetrate as well as the bullets in the sabot loads. You can safely shoot sabot loads through a cylinder choked smooth bore as well. Accuracy will suffer, but at 25yds it may be accurate enough. Food for thought.
 
There is two basic types of projectiles, besides shot, that you can shoot from a shotgun - rifled slugs and sabots.

A rifled slug is a round nosed "chunk of lead" that has rifling cast right into the slug itself and is shot from a smooth shotgun barrel. Most slug mfg's suggest using either a cylinder bore or improved cylinder choke (but that may vary by mfg) - so basically can be shot from any shotgun with a fairly open choke (I have shot 20 gauge rifled slugs in my "fixed choke" (modified) single shot without issue as an example).

The "rifling" cast into the slug causes it to spin "as if" it was shot from a rifled barrel - it is however, a relatively short range projectile. It doesn't spin "that well" and it's usually quite heavy, so drops rather quickly.

The second type is called a sabot. They started out essentially as a pistol bullet inside a plastic sabot (wrapper) - think of the shot cup that holds shot in a normal shot shell - the sabot "holds" the bullet until it clears the barrel, then falls away allowing the bullet to continue down range on it's own.

Some sabot's can be shot with nothing more than a "rifled choke" or an "extended" rifled choke - those were some of the early ones. As the Sabot's became more popular, displacing the slugs in many cases, the mfg's started "tweaking" their sabot's. The Sabot part has spin imparted on it by the rifling in choke tube (or the barrel in fully rifled barrel), spinning it at the twist rate of the rifling, which in turn spins the bullet to try and stabilize it in flight.

Some of the ones that will fly the best, travel the furthest and hit the hardest NEED a fully rifled shotgun barrel to impart enough "spin" - One of Hornady's products comes immediately to mind that states right on the box "fully rifled barrels only" (or something to that effect).

So the rifled slug, typically weighing an ounce (438 grains), because it's heavier will hit harder "at the short range" compared to a sabot which may be 380 grains as an example, BUT will not have the same range - the sabot, because it's more aerodynamic and stabilized better will fly further with enough retained energy to kill a deer.

I have seen both slugs and sabot's in both 2 3/4" and 3" loads - I haven't seen a 3 1/2" load and don't think I would want to pull the trigger on it anyhow - these things "thump hard" at both ends - you shoulder knows immediately that you didn't shoot a waterfowl load.

As to range, that's more of a personal thing.

A "typical" 3" 1oz rifled slug which leaves the muzzle at 1700'ish fps/2800 ft/lbs (Federal Truball) still has 800 ft/lbs at about 140 yards (and 800 ft/lbs gets tossed around as the minimum for deer). **while it had 2800 ft/lbs at the muzzle it's down to 2000 ft/lbs by the time it has gone 25 yards - sheds quickly.

Using Federal numbers again, their 383 grain Fusion Sabot also leaves the barrel at 1700'ish fps but only has 2450 ft/lbs - however, because of the better ballistics it's still packing 1900 ft/lbs @ 50 yards and just under 1400 ft/lbs @ 120 yards - so it loses it's energy slower even though it started with less.

If you plan on hunting with Sabot's for deer (in 12 or 20 gauge), you would be best served by getting a fully rifled barrel (available for just about every popular shotgun) and shooting the best sabot's you can find that shoot well from your set-up.
 
this is a good thread for me to find out more info

rifled slugs go in what firearm?
i have a 3 1/2 inch chambered semi auto shotgun

i am looking for some slugs,so what would i need?
what choke would i use?
what sort of range are they good for?
how many shells can i have in the tube? (i am in sask if that makes any difference)


Try challenger rifled slugs. They work great in both smooth and rifled guns. Canadian made and cheap. Hit hard fly true and dig deep into critters. I've never recovered one from an animal
 
I have a Mossberg 500 Road Blocker as I am customizing it still so I trying not to shoot it... I have some good ol' Federal 00 Buck and Bederal 3'' 1 1/8 oz rifled slugs, slugs are what I am told they are meant to shoot.
 
Grizzlies=Brenneke Rottweil Classic slug.

Challenger slug as a second choice IMO.

Conservation officers hereabouts in NE Alberta, use Federal 1 1/4 ounce fosters for black bear destruction only.

Important advice: Leave the copper plated and buffered magnum 000 buckshot for those with the cajones to wait until the charge is at 5-7 yards distance from yourself.

Anyone who advocates buckshot for daily use, is just fooling themselves. It's not called bearshot now is it??
 
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whats the advantage with Brenneke Rottweil Classic slug? never seen them in the local stores(not that I was looking) , I am not familiar with them

Google this info and you will get a myriad of useful information. This design has had life since about 1932 with it's roots in Germany.
Their own teutonic answer to the failings of pumpkin ball so common back then. American manufacturers finally got off their collective arses and brought forth the foster style slug that continues to serve North American WT deer hunters so well.

This Brenneke slug is used by the Alaskan State Troopers for moose and bear destruction. Their Wilderness Firefighters also have the exact same ammunition stashed in their survival gear.
During the spring salmon run in Juneau Alaska, May of 2000 none of the dealers could not keep these on the gun store shelves. Everyone literally stocked up on this very handy 12 gauge ammo for stream side fishermen.

During Iraq War Number 2 Brenneke produced the Special Forces slug for American military units to utilize on civilian automobiles for traffic checkpoints in hostile areas.

Don't just take my word for it, the information is out there indeed.
 
I just bought a rifled barrel off a fellow cgner and was planning on using sabbots for deer hunting this fall. I'm just wondering is it ok to go with rifled slugs in that barrel or does it have to be sabbot? Was just thinking for sighting it in since they're cheaper, then maybe throwing a few sabbots from 100 yds to make sure I'm where i want to be.
 
I just bought a rifled barrel off a fellow cgner and was planning on using sabbots for deer hunting this fall. I'm just wondering is it ok to go with rifled slugs in that barrel or does it have to be sabbot? Was just thinking for sighting it in since they're cheaper, then maybe throwing a few sabbots from 100 yds to make sure I'm where i want to be.

the rifled slug has a "weight at the front" design like a badminton bird, the sabot have even weight throughout its length, that's why they (sabot)stabilize when shot with a rifled barrel and fly true(like a rifle bullet), but, I have read that if you shoot rifled slugs thru a rifled barrel they can de-stabilize and you may get all sorts of different shaped holes on your target i.e. key holing, but I guess even with this happening it might be good enough to get you on paper then fine tune with some sabots? however, I suspect that you may have a lot more drop with the rifled slugs at 100yds than with a sabot though so you may be on paper with rifled then switch to sabot and be shooting above your target with the same point of aim
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAq5jNBrRbw

These seem to work well and are more available than the Brenneke.

He also has a video showcasing the penetration characteristics of those as well.

after watching these videos it looks like the brenneke and the federal deep penetrator are both great choices for maximum stopping power of a large angry ball of fur with teeth and claws, now looking at WSS and cabelas websites I see neither listed so where the heck do you get them?
 
after watching these videos it looks like the brenneke and the federal deep penetrator are both great choices for maximum stopping power of a large angry ball of fur with teeth and claws, now looking at WSS and cabelas websites I see neither listed so where the heck do you get them?

I've almost always been able to pick them up at P&D Enterprises(Federal).Call or email them to place an order,you wont find them on the website.
Ammosupply.ca had Brenneke at on time.
 
I just bought a rifled barrel off a fellow cgner and was planning on using sabbots for deer hunting this fall. I'm just wondering is it ok to go with rifled slugs in that barrel or does it have to be sabbot? Was just thinking for sighting it in since they're cheaper, then maybe throwing a few sabbots from 100 yds to make sure I'm where i want to be.

There are "hybrid" style slugs which are significantly cheaper then true sabots. Challengers slugs. Winchester Rack Masters. They're around $1.25/slug. I myself use the Winchester Rackmasters and have received excellent results to 100m through both smoothbore and rifled barrels. My guns didnt like the Challengers too well.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/Advanced/RackMaster/Pages/default.aspx
 
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