Safest action?
- Thread starter manbearpig
- Start date
Not specifically action failures but interesting non the less. Would be nice to have all the actions compared with video to back up manufactures claims. I'm not convinced with Remingtons "three rings of steel" marketing, since it is just that marketing. I want to see where the rubber meets the road with side by side tests by and independent test facility with no bias.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AqMl1A4aQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AqMl1A4aQ
Fellow Gun Nutz;
I've had cases fail in a Ruger 77 and a No. 1 as well as having a primer pierced in an older Browning BBR. All three seemed to vent the gas away from me.
I once took apart a Husqvarna, I believe the FN built large ring type that had come apart for reasons still unknown. The stock was cracked for and aft of the action, the extractor was gone, the bolt frozen shut and the floorplate, follower and magazine spring were gone. I finally got the bolt hammered open and was able to strip the safety out of it to use in another rifle, so I suppose in that regard it wasn't a total write off.
For those who say the modern drop blocks are the strongest, I'll offer these two photos. The owner believed that he'd fed it a .250 Savage round instead of the .22-.250 that it was chambered for.
The fore end was wrecked, as well as the butt stock. When I got it the barrel had been removed, but from the look of the threads something went badly wrong there too. The hammer was never found, nor the extractor. The lever was broken too.
I can only guess as to the strongest, but offer these examples of life gone sideways in a significant way.
Regards,
Dwayne
I've had cases fail in a Ruger 77 and a No. 1 as well as having a primer pierced in an older Browning BBR. All three seemed to vent the gas away from me.
I once took apart a Husqvarna, I believe the FN built large ring type that had come apart for reasons still unknown. The stock was cracked for and aft of the action, the extractor was gone, the bolt frozen shut and the floorplate, follower and magazine spring were gone. I finally got the bolt hammered open and was able to strip the safety out of it to use in another rifle, so I suppose in that regard it wasn't a total write off.
For those who say the modern drop blocks are the strongest, I'll offer these two photos. The owner believed that he'd fed it a .250 Savage round instead of the .22-.250 that it was chambered for.
The fore end was wrecked, as well as the butt stock. When I got it the barrel had been removed, but from the look of the threads something went badly wrong there too. The hammer was never found, nor the extractor. The lever was broken too.
I can only guess as to the strongest, but offer these examples of life gone sideways in a significant way.
Regards,
Dwayne
The video is interesting but barrel blow up tests reflect the strength of the barrel, not how the action will handle a blown case. Typically European made barrels are stronger than North American made barrels... that is old news.
You may think the 3 rings is advertising hype but there are thousands of very knowledgeable people in the gun industry who would disagree. I don't know of any firearm manufacturers who do not recognize the excellence of Mr. Walker's design.
I think you should invest in about 10 different factory rifles and do some testing yourself. You will soon find some unbiased answers.
Ackley tested and blew a lot of rifles apart,I have the books packed. But I remember the Lee Enfield came in best , pretty sure it was the jungle carbine. The mauser didn't burst, just bulged. One other one was 1892 winchester he even took the blocks out, still didn,t blow up. If I find these picture's I'll somehow post them
Dale
Dale
Now I love my enfields, especially my No. 5. I cannot see the single lug, rear-locking design of the enfield being near as strong as an M98 though.
Pathfinder
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I think the best example is when a said Model 38 was rechambered to 30.06 with no other changes. When fired the .308 bullet swaged to .264 with no issues other than excessive recoil...that rifle was eventually sent to the NRA for further testing where this test was reproduced succesfully.
I believe the unspecting owner had even taken a Deer with it. ( I believe I read all this in one of Ackleys books)
While is doesnt' demonstrate how the action survives a case failure it makes a hell of case for its barrels.
There are 1000's pf knowledgeable people in the gun industry I agree, but most we hear from are in N. America. All I'm saying is because we're exposed to predominantly N.A. products and design doesn't make them the best. We simply can't make assumptions based on opinion or manufacturers claims without some sort of standardized testing to sort fact from fiction. If I had the cash, know how (testing procedures), and resources (high speed camera)I'd be all up for doing some testing, I'm actually surprised no one has yet.
In the two volume Ackley books I have of him blowing up military actions, he doesn't test the Lee Enfield.
He tests the Enfield of 1917 actions. Tested two of them and neither was very strong. One was much too hard and the other was much too soft.
The one action that just wouldn't blow up, just kept blowing barrels off, no matter the super quality barrels he put on, was a Japanese WW2 action.
Yep, I remember reading about the Japanese action, and the differential heat treating that was responsible for its amazing strength.
burnt_servo
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the lee enfield has TWIN rear locking lugs ....... yes 2 of them .
burnt_servo
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in the mid 90's i recall reading in one of the handloader magazines a story about a guy rechambering a japanese rifle to 30-06 , and getting out of this world velocities from standard off the shelf 30-06 rounds .
turned out he was still using the 6.5 mm barrel and sqeezing the 30 cal bullet down to 6.5 each time it was fired .
turned out he was still using the 6.5 mm barrel and sqeezing the 30 cal bullet down to 6.5 each time it was fired .
Sorry guys, I missed seeing the Lee Enfield testing of the action.
He tried 52 grains of 4198 with 150 grain bullet and it made the primer leak! That is one mighty stiff load. The Hodgdon site on the net doesn't show 4198, but they show a full load of 4895 as being 44.2 grains. 4198 must be on the order of 10% faster, so that was one heavy load and all it did was make the primer leak.
And wow, a compressed load of 2400, 50 grains of it. No wonder that one broke the bolt.
He tried 52 grains of 4198 with 150 grain bullet and it made the primer leak! That is one mighty stiff load. The Hodgdon site on the net doesn't show 4198, but they show a full load of 4895 as being 44.2 grains. 4198 must be on the order of 10% faster, so that was one heavy load and all it did was make the primer leak.
And wow, a compressed load of 2400, 50 grains of it. No wonder that one broke the bolt.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Interesting thread indeed. Myself, I own a discontinued Model 1375 Wichita. It's a single shot bolt action target rifle. It had a three lug bolt face, and I suspect it is a very strong action.
PS: Big bolt shroud, makes for a nice gas shield. Some are steel, others aluminum.
PS: Big bolt shroud, makes for a nice gas shield. Some are steel, others aluminum.
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hi i am a huge fan of mauser style actions. however i would have to agree with the statement that the remington 700 action handles gas from a ruptured case the best. with this design though you sacrifice reliability of extraction and ejection due to the very small extractors and bolt mounted plunger style ejectors. modern mauser style actions such as the various m98, new winchester model 70s ect are very strong and handle gasses very well.
Not so long ago I witnessed an accident that I will never forget involving a Remington 700. A buddy of mine picked up some reloaded ammo from a gun show and was using it to zero his rifle at a place about 4 hours from home.
Anyway after a shot, he jumped up quickly from his rifle and held his hand over his right eye. Then when he took his hand away from his face, with his other eye he say the blood on his hand. At that point he began to freak out. He was bleeding from several places all over one side of his face, but there was no severe lacerations that I could see. It was more like some sort of road rash. He could still see from both eyes, but the right eye was very irritated and he could not keep it open due to pain.
I thought at first his rifle must have blown up, but there was no visible sign of damage to it. Then I extracted the spent round and found that it had ruptured. Not sure why, possibly too much powder or maybe the case had too many rounds through it, I dont know. Anyway, the pressure must have blown backward around the bolt and or through the firing pin hole and he too the pressure blast in the face. Obviously the little vent hole did not do the trick.
He was alright after a few days. He had to put ointment into his eye and wear a patch for a while, but he's fine now. He sold off his Remmys since and bought Sakos.
Since then I have always been cautious of Remington 700s until recently when I got checking out tube guns. The butt of a MAK tube gun is attached over the back of the action in such a way, that if the above was to happen, the gas would be shielded from the shooters face and vented out the bolt handle slot. For this reason more than any other, I built a MAK tube gun.
Anyway after a shot, he jumped up quickly from his rifle and held his hand over his right eye. Then when he took his hand away from his face, with his other eye he say the blood on his hand. At that point he began to freak out. He was bleeding from several places all over one side of his face, but there was no severe lacerations that I could see. It was more like some sort of road rash. He could still see from both eyes, but the right eye was very irritated and he could not keep it open due to pain.
I thought at first his rifle must have blown up, but there was no visible sign of damage to it. Then I extracted the spent round and found that it had ruptured. Not sure why, possibly too much powder or maybe the case had too many rounds through it, I dont know. Anyway, the pressure must have blown backward around the bolt and or through the firing pin hole and he too the pressure blast in the face. Obviously the little vent hole did not do the trick.
He was alright after a few days. He had to put ointment into his eye and wear a patch for a while, but he's fine now. He sold off his Remmys since and bought Sakos.
Since then I have always been cautious of Remington 700s until recently when I got checking out tube guns. The butt of a MAK tube gun is attached over the back of the action in such a way, that if the above was to happen, the gas would be shielded from the shooters face and vented out the bolt handle slot. For this reason more than any other, I built a MAK tube gun.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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^or you could just wear shooting glasses
^or you could just wear shooting glasses
more like a full face shield from what happened to the guy.
- Location
- Eastern Edge of the Foothills
Or never shoot reloads you buy at a gunshow. That seems like the crux of the mistake here. I only trust reloads that I've loaded myself, or the ones my father reloaded [since he taught me how, and I've been shooting his reloads since I was a kid]. Trusting some random guy, that he did it right and used the proper components etc, is taking a big risk. Not a risk I'm willing to take. I like my eyes where they are. Lucky thing your buddy recovered.
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Somewhere in the Third World
your face will heal. your eyes usually dont.
