safety vs decocker - how to choose?

[popcan]

I've always (up to now) owned Sig pistols with decockers.

What is the decision-making matrix for going with a safety or decocker?
(why choose one over the other, what are the key reasons, and what do you like and why?)

 

[Contondant]

The decocker on my sig mosquito decocks the hammer all the way down. I'm not sure how it is on the bigger models. The decocker is more of a law enforcement thing, so that after locking and loading their firearm, a LEO can decock it safely in order to holster. The public would get right freaked out by a LEO walking around with hammer back, cocked and locked (it sends off more agressive vibes I guess), so a safety on a duty-pistol is useless. Safeties are better suited for range or even military (in some cases) uses, where the hammer could be back when holstering. The problem with some decockers (at least, the CZ Phantom's decocker, I used to have) is that they don't decock the hammer all the way down onto the firing pin, which would be arguably more dangerous to carry than a pistol cocked-and-locked with external safety "on" because any direct impact on that hammer (like dropping the gun for instance) would engage the firing pin and potentially fire the gun. These decocker's (not the case with my Mosquito, as mentioned) drop the hammer to the safer "half ####" position, where it's safely in "double action" mode of fire and yet not unsafely stowed with the hammer on the firing pin. It's not a problem for LEOs, but it is for IPSC shooters and the like, that have to start the shooting stage from the hammer "fully" down position. For them, this type of decocker is completely useless and they're better off with a safety, even if they don't use it in competition.

Sorry, I don't know Sigs very well though. I can only speak as to CZs and unless you were somehow buying a CZ as a duty sidearm, I wouldn't go for a CZ decocker.

 

[BCRider]

Safety vs decocker is the last thing on my own mind when choosing a handgun. First is does it shoot well or at least have a good reputation for shooting well. Second is does it fit my hand well. Third is can I find parts for it. Fourth is does it fit in with my own preference for design (no Star Wars looking stuff unless it's a Whitney Wolverine ) and materials (I like my guns to be mostly metal).

My only real concern about the safety is that the lever or knob doesn't bite into my hand or get in the way of my thumb and to some extent that it be decently easy to use.

The exception for me to this would be in the case of IPSC or IDPA shooting where the safety needs to be used or there's the need to lower the hammer before holstering. In my case the ring tang on my Shadow provides me with a good gripping surface for lowering the hammer with good control. It's not as certain as a decocker I'm guessing but so far I have yet to slip after some 200 or so hammer lowerings during practice and my first matches. So I suppose the hammer design will play a part when considering how you want to use the gun. And of course a good safety is well worth having on any single action only gun. A decocker on a SA only gun would be a little odd so regular safeties are all you have to work with.

 

[mackattack]

The advantage of the decocker is that when carried hot, the only thing required is the Double action pull. With a manual safety, you have to thumb off the safety. The advantage there is that you are in single action. Depends on your preference I guess. That's the advantage of the Glock and M&P, you have neither to bother with. The only safety is your finger and you have a consistent trigger pull every time.

 

[targettarget]

Sig got it right with the decocker.

I despise slide mounted safety. Actually, I despise all safeties. I would go with a decocker any day of the week over a safety, particularly a slide mounted version.

Also, keep in mind that some safeties also double as a decocker. If you move the gun to "safe", it may also decock the hammer.

 

[ian_in_vic]

I've just purchased a pistol that I think is close to perfect, no safety other than a trigger and firing pin block. Safety is what happens between your ears.

 

[targettarget]

I've just purchased a pistol that I think is close to perfect, no safety other than a trigger and firing pin block. Safety is what happens between your ears.

Please, do share.

 

[DBeato]

I must be old school because I would never own a handgun with decocker. the whole DA/SA is a conundrum to me. I want a gun with the same trigger pull every time I pull the trigger, this just makes sense to me. that is why I shoot BHP's, CZ-75's, 1911's these with safeties that I can deal with or the newer Glocks, M&P's, and XD's. Every other gun I shoot, rifles, shotguns have the same trigger pull, why change it for my pistol?

 

[Samopal]

I like safeties on some guns and decockers on others. Trigger discipline + thumbing the hammer down is really all I need and choosing decocker vs safety is usually an aesthetic choice: which looks better?

The public would get right freaked out by a LEO walking around with hammer back, cocked and locked...

The general public doesn't know the difference.

 

[IM_Lugger]

get a Beretta 92 dafety and a decocker 2 in one

 

[Can-down]

I must be old school because I would never own a handgun with decocker. the whole DA/SA is a conundrum to me. I want a gun with the same trigger pull every time I pull the trigger, this just makes sense to me. that is why I shoot BHP's, CZ-75's, 1911's these with safeties that I can deal with or the newer Glocks, M&P's, and XD's. Every other gun I shoot, rifles, shotguns have the same trigger pull, why change it for my pistol?

I've got a cz with a decocker and I don't find it all that hard to deal with.

I can decide if I want to shoot SA or DA for the first shot then SA.

If I want to go SA from the de-cocked position with a round in the chamber, I just #### the hammer with my thumb.

If there is no round in the chamber I pull back on the slide and release and once again it's SA....

I think the only real difference is in a first shot self-defense situation where the choice would be between sweeping a safety and then firing SA or pulling a longer first shot in DA and then continuing SA.....unless there is enough time to pull the hammer back and then the first shot could be SA as well with the de-cocker pistol.

Since I can't carry a pistol for self-defense it's a moot point.

 

[tjhaile]

I think that Jeff Cooper said it best:

"Double action in an auto pistol seems to me an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem."

That said, if you shoot IPSC Production Division or IDPA Stock Service Pistol, you are just as well to choose a decocker because you can't start off from cocked-and-locked anyway.

 

[Contondant]

I think that Jeff Cooper said it best:

"Double action in an auto pistol seems to me an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem."

That said, if you shoot IPSC Production Division or IDPA Stock Service Pistol, you are just as well to choose a decocker because you can't start off from cocked-and-locked anyway.

Bottom line: Do Sig decockers decock all the way down, 'cause as I mentioned in my previous post, the CZ doesn't and that wouldn't cut it for IPSC (you'd have to decock with you hands on the hammer, even with a decocker).

 

[ian_in_vic]

Please, do share.

M&P in 45 acp. with no mag safety, no thumb safety, just a firing pin block and a trigger you have to pull to say bang the only time you would decock it is when you tear it down.

 

[TDC]

Bottom line: Do Sig decockers decock all the way down, 'cause as I mentioned in my previous post, the CZ doesn't and that wouldn't cut it for IPSC (you'd have to decock with you hands on the hammer, even with a decocker).

Your previous post is flawed. SIG pistols do not decock the hammer to the point it makes contact with the firing pin. Even if it did, the firing pin block prevents the firing pin from moving without trigger manipulation. Most quality pistols have a firing pin block/safety.

TDC

 

[TDC]

I can decide if I want to shoot SA or DA for the first shot then SA.

If I want to go SA from the de-cocked position with a round in the chamber, I just #### the hammer with my thumb.

If there is no round in the chamber I pull back on the slide and release and once again it's SA....

I think the only real difference is in a first shot self-defense situation where the choice would be between sweeping a safety and then firing SA or pulling a longer first shot in DA and then continuing SA.....unless there is enough time to pull the hammer back and then the first shot could be SA as well with the de-cocker pistol.

Since I can't carry a pistol for self-defense it's a moot point.

Regardless of target medium why would you choose to run your pistol in DA?

I think that Jeff Cooper said it best:

"Double action in an auto pistol seems to me an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem."

DA/SA pistols are the first "point and pull" pistols. The striker fired pistols like the Glock, M&P, XD are the improved versions. Eliminating the need to disengage a positive safety speeds the firing sequence, does not affect the firing grip, reduces the mechanical piece count of the firearm and eliminates the possibility of forgetting the safety is engaged.

TDC

 

[Contondant]

Ok, my only point is that the dococker on the model I'm familiar with (CZ) only half-cocks the hammer which is not good enough for IPSC.

 

[RUSTSPOT]

The problem with some decockers (at least, the CZ Phantom's decocker, I used to have) is that they don't decock the hammer all the way down onto the firing pin, which would be arguably more dangerous to carry than a pistol cocked-and-locked with external safety "on" because any direct impact on that hammer (like dropping the gun for instance) would engage the firing pin and potentially fire the gun.

i dont think a cz or 1911 would get an A/D when dropped with a round in chamber and hammer down. because the hammer needs to travel in order to strike the firing pin. but when the hammer is rested on the slide, impact energy from the drop would not send the firing pin forward .for sig's , it's a little different. there's a gap between the hammer and the firing pin. if the hammer was hit hard enough , the gun might go off but i dont think dropping from waist height is enough to get an AD. unless the gun was thrown down from 3rd floor by a major league pitcher and landed right on the hammer. hammer back and safety on is probably the most dangerous wany to carry a 1911. if it was dropped hard enough ,even tho the manual safety blocks the sear , the hammer or the sear could break and release the hammer forward. if the sear broke, the half #### safety catch might not work to stop the hammer (given that the gun was drop hard enough on the hammer to break the sear in the first place) .

if i was allowed to carry a gun, i wouldn't carry my 1911 hot with safety on. it's takes zero effort to disengage the extended safety , my shirt catching it wouldve done the trick. the trigger is way too light to boot . i would only carry it with no rounds in the chamber. it takes no time to rack the slide when you need it.

as for choosing between decock or MS. i'd probably take decock . the chance of using either feature in canada is slim . when at the range, the gun is either rest on the bench with an open slide. or in your hand ready to shoot. for competition , you could use the decocker before holstering the gun at "make ready" stage. but i trust my index and thumb to lower the hammer more than a mechanical piece.

 

[TDC]

i dont think a cz or 1911 would get an A/D when dropped with a round in chamber and hammer down. because the hammer needs to travel in order to strike the firing pin. but when the hammer is rested on the slide, impact energy from the drop would not send the firing pin forward .for sig's , it's a little different. there's a gap between the hammer and the firing pin. if the hammer was hit hard enough , the gun might go off but i dont think dropping from waist height is enough to get an AD. unless the gun was thrown down from 3rd floor by a major league pitcher and landed right on the hammer. hammer back and safety on is probably the most dangerous wany to carry a 1911. if it was dropped hard enough ,even tho the manual safety blocks the sear , the hammer or the sear could break and release the hammer forward. if the sear broke, the half #### safety catch might not work to stop the hammer (given that the gun was drop hard enough on the hammer to break the sear in the first place) .

if i was allowed to carry a gun, i wouldn't carry my 1911 hot with safety on. it's takes zero effort to disengage the extended safety , my shirt catching it wouldve done the trick. the trigger is way too light to boot . i would only carry it with no rounds in the chamber. it takes no time to rack the slide when you need it.

as for choosing between decock or MS. i'd probably take decock . the chance of using either feature in canada is slim . when at the range, the gun is either rest on the bench with an open slide. or in your hand ready to shoot. for competition , you could use the decocker before holstering the gun at "make ready" stage. but i trust my index and thumb to lower the hammer more than a mechanical piece.

Check your facts and my last post. Most modern pistols have a firing pin block/safety that prevents firing pin movement unless the trigger is pulled to the rear. Aside from this, carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is a non issue. The grip safety blocks the trigger from moving and the frame mounted safety blocks the sear. A proper holster will protect the safety from being "wiped" off and should cover the entire trigger guard, thus preventing access should the grip safety somehow fail. A charged system such as a 1911 does inherently run the risk of mechanical failure causing an ND but I wouldn't concern myself with it.

Carrying "Israeli" with no round chambered is inefficient and defeats the purpose of a rapid access firearm.

TDC

 

[RUSTSPOT]

Eliminating the need to disengage a positive safety speeds the firing sequence, does not affect the firing grip, reduces the mechanical piece count of the firearm and eliminates the possibility of forgetting the safety is engaged.

it's dummy prove, yes. but DA requires a longer trigger pull which adds time. so i wouldnt say it doesnt affect the time to send the first round out. 0.1 secound for extra trigger travel is still time . to a skilled shooter, the moment you grab the gun, your thumb should be on the manual safety and disengage it as you bring the gun up to sight. like chewing and swallowing, they go together or you choke , SA first shot will beat DA no matter how good you are .