Safety- Wrought Iron frames on Colt SAA

cantom

cantom

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In another thread, Ardent brought up some very important info re antique Colt Single Action Army frames.
Read post 22 on page 3.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=587219&page=3

These wrought iron black powder frames were not meant for use with smokeless powder! Some have done so and had zero issues, but others have not been so lucky. When laying out 4K plus on an iron, it'd be very worthwhile to make sure you're not hurting your investment if for no other reason.

Basically, use black powder or black powder equivalent, or take a chance on ruining your frame!


This thread on thefiringline has some good info on what frames are what.


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160637
 
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I don't think its clear black and white, different loads will give different pressures. I bet a .45 colt loaded with 40 grains BP and a 255gr bullet at 900fps puts more strain on the frame than light smokeless loads, especially if those light smokeless loads are in a smaller caliber such as .44. Also I would say the SAA is one of the most robust antique revolvers.
 
I don't have a pony is this race, don't own an SAA. I just think those who do should know this important point re the frames.

I've also been admiring the nice ones we've seen for sale lately. They're fine if loaded for the right way.
 
The problem with smokeless is many people don't understand the importance of using low pressure loads. Some smokeless loads may have equal or lower pressure than an equivalent BP load. I prefer to shoot smokeless whan I can as it's easier to clean up.
 
AFAIK, if you can maintain the pressures below 10,000 psi in your medium and large frame antique six shooters, you should be ok and still have a good safety margin.

If you want smokeless load data in many calibers that antiques use (44 Russian, 44 Special, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Schofield, amongst others), I suggest the "Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook, Third Edition". The book in question lists smokeless pressures with pretty much every load/bullet type you can get (or cast).

:)
 
You shouldn't single out the SAA, it's fairly strong compared to others.

You must be carefull shooting smokeless in any antique. I'm in the middle of switching to a slower smokeless powder, one equivalent to FFFg blackpowder pressure for the same FPS.

In some instances the correct smokeless loads are LOWER pressure and safer for your old gun. The problem with smokeless comes when you over charge the case, by either a double charge or just wanting more FPS.

Using a powder like Blue Dot or slower and attaining the same FPS as the original BP loads you will have the same or even lower pressure. However some bullets like hollow base generally need a faster powder so proper obturation of the base takes place.
 
41 Colt said:
You shouldn't single out the SAA, it's fairly strong compared to others.
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The reason for mentioning the SAA...the new barrels and cylinders in various calibres that are available and being used to produce an attractive, modern looking piece. This is somewhat unique to the SAA. The risk is, if people don't know about the limitations of the frame, they might think those strong cylinders and new barrels mean they can go hog wild with the loads.

Ardent mentions the different pressure curve of smokeless powder vs black. At the least, people should read his words, and then act as they will, fully informed.

Personally I'd agree that keeping it under 10,000 psi sounds like the way to go.
 
I Like and use 2400 like Elmer keith did and have no signs of frames streching cracking ect as long as you know what your doing.

I think its what you load that maters eh, leaveing air space in a BP load (this can happen with a week bullet crimp to) as each shot is fired the bullets move forward in the other cases with each shot till you end up with air space.
I have seen this happen with BP loads and its just as dangerous as any smokeless loaded loaded to hot.
Theres other powders now even better than 2400 for haveing that low presure curve.
 
cantom said:
Ardent mentions the different pressure curve of smokeless powder vs black.
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This depends on the powder. A powder like Blue Dot or 2400 has a similar pressure curve to blackpowder if loaded to give the same FPS.
 
I think the general reason for saying "only blackpowder, no smokeless" is because people likely to blow their guns up will stop at this and stick to it.... and it's very hard to overcharge a case with blackpowder.


Those that understand how things work can understand how to work around it. They don't need to be told that their guns are fragile, so they can make provisions for that.
 
I've been looking for whatever I can find on this. This is definitely going to be one of those situations where you ask a hundred experts and get a hundred different answers.

Saw these:

John Taffin, who has forgotten more about sixguns than I will ever know, says blackpowder only in antique guns. Colt first proofed the SAA with smokeless powder at 192,000 but the safe and prudent cut-off is at serial number 196,000.

John is absolutely right so far as he goes. Smokeless cartridges should not be fired in black powder era cylinders. He didn't address the issue of revolvers retrofitted with new cylinders - something that Colt did to literally thousands of black powder Single Actions themselves. They also proofed the gun when they were done. It should be obvious that they wouldn't have converted older revolvers if the practice wasn't safe.
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I have a few old Colts and shoot them regularly. Here are my suggestions.

If you reload I suggest American Pioneer Powder which is a black powder substitute. It gives plenty of smoke but is not nearly as corrosive as black powder and it is very easy to clean. Best of all, you don't have to use a grease cookie or wide lub. bullet. A standard lubed bullet will work just fine.

I suggest you get some .45 S&W (Scofield) brass which holds just the right amount of powder for a pleasant load, about 30 grains of black. Or try the .45 Special brass which you can load with your .45acp dies and a .45 Colt shell plate. It will take 26 grains of black.

If you load smokeless I suggest Trail Boss powder. This powder is formulated to take up a lot more space than other smokeless powders, so you don't have that great big .45 case with just a little powder in it. This can cause ignition problems with light loads.
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The cylinder contains the pressure but it is not the only part affected. The bolt, the hole in the frame for the bolt, the hand, the barrel and the frame must all withstand increased battering from increased pressures and recoil. The frame must resist stretching. So while your factory converted gun 'may' be safe for 14,000psi smokeless loads, a new cylinder does not necessarily make an iron frame blackpowder gun safe for them. The sixgun in question was made well before the advent of smokeless powder. The peak pressure is not the only concern, the pressure curve is very relevant.
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mine was done at colt in the 1950's (38 special new cylinder / barrel / hammer) so they also proofed the gun when they were done.??

i never plan to shoot "hot" ammo in mine. cowboy action loads are the max i would do.
 
41 Colt said:
This depends on the powder. A powder like Blue Dot or 2400 has a similar pressure curve to blackpowder if loaded to give the same FPS.
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NO. This statement is only true for rifle cartridges and NOT most blackpowder pistol cartridges, which is what is being discussed here. 2400 is markedly slower than FFFG blackpowder.

2400 is similar in burn rate to FFG blackpowder which was mostly used in rifle cartridges.

2400 IS NOT similar in burn rate or pressure curve to FFFG blackpowder which is what most of the black powder pistol cartridges were loaded with.
 
You are correct about 2400 being closer to FFg, but FFg was used is some pistol cartriges. My Lyman Blackpowder manual lists both FFFg & FFg loads for all the pistol cartriges in fact.
 
41 Colt said:
You are correct about 2400 being closer to FFg, but FFg was used is some pistol cartriges. My Lyman Blackpowder manual lists both FFFg & FFg loads for all the pistol cartriges in fact.
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I do not think that the fact the Lyman manual lists pistol loads with FFG powder is evidence that it was loaded in factory pistol ammo back in the day.

The fact is that in handgun-length barrels 2400 is a very poor choice for the smaller capacity blackpowder pistol catridges, and only slightly more usable in larger capacity cases like the .45 colt. Quickload calculations confirm this.
 
Keith writes in his Book Sixguns that 2400 is no powder for the novice to use in reloading pistol ammo.

Also he writes for most revolver cartridges , black powder should be secured in the FFg granulation, but for the smaller .32 cartridges the FFFg will give abit more veloicty.

Also he mentions Bullet Dia to bore Dia its best to check your Bore Dia and not to use bullets over .002 tho bigger than grove Dia as that spikes presure as well.

I only use the 2400 in the large cases like 45 schofield or 44 Sp and
Keep it to safe loadings.
I trust Keith more than most cause Elmer did alot of this stuff and blew up a few guns to.
you have to fail at some point to learn where the real boundrys are.

Win 3855 has posted on CGN Other better smokeless powders that have low presure loads for use in handguns again they only work best in large cases 44 and 45 caliber.
The info he posted was pretty good reading if someone can find it.
 
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