Has anyone seen a model 49 FN with a C broad arrow? A friend of mine mentioned that he was attending jump school in Rivers, Manitoba in 1955. He saw a section of RCR's equipped with SAFN's in 7x57. Going back in 1966 for a refresher course, the para training gear consisted of a SAFN rifle for actual jumps. The breach- blocks had been removed. This makes sense in a way, as why ruin the new C1A1 issue rifles in training. Anyone ever seen one, or have pictures? Thanks in advance for any information.
SAFN's in Canadian Service
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NavyShooter
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Check the FAL bible on that? I don't recall seeing anything in it about SAFN's coming to Canada for trials or other use, until they hit the surplus market anyhow...
NS
NS
Safn 49
To my knowledge the FN49 was never used by the CF, even for trials back then, the M1 Garand was limited to some trials though. I do recall during my para course, way back in the 70's the early type FAL's made by FN were used, these were the EX 1 series or early experimental metric FAL's used for troop evaluations in the early 50's, predecessors of the FN C1. Even after reviewing lots of CABC/Airborne photos and literature nothing indicates SAFN49 use. The early Canadian SAS sqn in 1947/49 had No # 5 Jungle carbines trialed before their disbandement, I have seen some photos of this. Your friend may have meant the metric FAL, but used the wrong terminology. g2.
To my knowledge the FN49 was never used by the CF, even for trials back then, the M1 Garand was limited to some trials though. I do recall during my para course, way back in the 70's the early type FAL's made by FN were used, these were the EX 1 series or early experimental metric FAL's used for troop evaluations in the early 50's, predecessors of the FN C1. Even after reviewing lots of CABC/Airborne photos and literature nothing indicates SAFN49 use. The early Canadian SAS sqn in 1947/49 had No # 5 Jungle carbines trialed before their disbandement, I have seen some photos of this. Your friend may have meant the metric FAL, but used the wrong terminology. g2.
SAFN's
My friend is very knowledgeable regarding military firearms. He has both Garands, and a FN-49 in his collection. He jumped with one during a refresher course in '66.
My friend is very knowledgeable regarding military firearms. He has both Garands, and a FN-49 in his collection. He jumped with one during a refresher course in '66.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
When I first went to jump school at CABC Edmonton in '84, there were metric FN/FAL rifles the earliest Belgian made factory model with no flash hider on the barrel.(but not a C1 or C1A1)
These must have been the earliest FAL models were purchased by Canada, in the 1950's.
Of course like you said earlier, there were no breachblocks either.
Plus the trigger guards were long since gone or purposefully removed. They were in sad shape, but okay for the constant abuse of parachuting training.
So I am too young to be of any help here, as I did not see any FN-49s, sorry.
These must have been the earliest FAL models were purchased by Canada, in the 1950's.
Of course like you said earlier, there were no breachblocks either.
Plus the trigger guards were long since gone or purposefully removed. They were in sad shape, but okay for the constant abuse of parachuting training.
So I am too young to be of any help here, as I did not see any FN-49s, sorry.
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Safn 49
Very nice pics, that is one of the few very early FAL prototypes, predates the EX series by several years, late 40's / very early 50's vintage nice to see someone had the forethought to preserve this rare beast rather than consign it to a slow painful death of abuse at the airborne school. No evidence found to support SAFN 49 use yet, though that is not to say they could have been trialed against the Garand or early FAL experimentals in the late 40's when the UK trialed them after WW2.g2.
Very nice pics, that is one of the few very early FAL prototypes, predates the EX series by several years, late 40's / very early 50's vintage nice to see someone had the forethought to preserve this rare beast rather than consign it to a slow painful death of abuse at the airborne school. No evidence found to support SAFN 49 use yet, though that is not to say they could have been trialed against the Garand or early FAL experimentals in the late 40's when the UK trialed them after WW2.g2.
Maybe he jumped with his. - dan
Lee Enfield
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That is a pre-FAL prototype, IIRC the abreviation was CAMP (IIRC Carbine Automatic Medium? P###).
Canada ordered the first PRODUCTION FALs, there were some 54ish prototypes built BEFORE the Canadian order (2000 Ex1 and Ex2 rifles) in June/July? '53. The order started production when the 7.62 chamber drawing was finalized in Jan '54.
These guns were on firing trials in Canada by mid '54.
Canada's order appears to have been followed by the Americans in August? '53 (based on prototype serial T-48), then the British X8E1 & X8E2s in Sept or Dec? '53
I doubt that Canada would have trialed SAFNs, as the Garand was already in the ORBAT and everyone was already looking ahead to the new light rifle (FN FAL / EM2).
Canada was actually THE main player in this push for a common LIGHT rifle & cartridge...
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Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes I remember reading somewhere too, that Canada was officially adopt this design, the first to order them in 54.
There was an article in a SAR last year about that (I believe in the June '06 issue). The article was discussing how the T-48 was built off Canadian C1 drawings and Canadian technical assistance, amongst other things.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that before the C1 was adopted there were small arms being issued in .45acp, 30-06, .303, 9mm, and .30 carbine. When we standardized with the C1 that was reduced to .308 and 9mm.
Wikipedia does not list us as official users (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Model_1949), but we were in the Congo in the 60's as peacekeepers. Perhaps these were bring backs?
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that before the C1 was adopted there were small arms being issued in .45acp, 30-06, .303, 9mm, and .30 carbine. When we standardized with the C1 that was reduced to .308 and 9mm.
Wikipedia does not list us as official users (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Model_1949), but we were in the Congo in the 60's as peacekeepers. Perhaps these were bring backs?
Cdn use of the SAFN makes no sense.In the early '50s we were already focussed on the next generation autoloader(the FAL) and the NATO standard 7.62 round.We already had experience with, and opportunities to use the Garand,which was a proven design and superior to the SAFN,so why would we consider the SAFN,other than as a curiosity?
BTW, when the FN was adopted standard small arms rounds in use were the 9mm .303,and .30-06. The RCAF did use Garands and BARs in .30-06 for airfield defence in Europe in the early '50s.The M1919 Brownings in cal .30-06 were retained until the late '60s when they were replaced by the re-worked Browning in 7.62.
BTW, when the FN was adopted standard small arms rounds in use were the 9mm .303,and .30-06. The RCAF did use Garands and BARs in .30-06 for airfield defence in Europe in the early '50s.The M1919 Brownings in cal .30-06 were retained until the late '60s when they were replaced by the re-worked Browning in 7.62.
Lee Enfield
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- Location
- Republic of Alberta
The order was made in June/July 1953, but it was to be completed ONLY after the 7.62 NATO chamber was officially adopted. This occurred in Jan 1954.
Canada was the first country to adopt 7.62x51 NATO.
The original order was for 1000 Ex1 iron sighted rifles and 1000 Ex2 rifles with the EM2 unit optic. According to "the book" the order was ammended to 1700 Ex1 and 300 Ex2 rifles.
The first PRODUCTION C1 rifles were issued to units in 1956, but there couldn't have been many of them because I've seen pics of a 1957 serialed @0L2###.
0L0000 is dated 1956 and pictured on the cover of "The North American FAL".
I was talking to someone on the weekend who had 0L0002 in his hot little hands recently in a Regimental Museum.
a little of topic, but didn't venezuela adopt the FAL in 7x49? was this just a slightly shortened NATO case with a 7 mm bullet? or a different case entirely? and if i read this right, ht tp://www.mexicoarmado.com/archive/index.php/t-3411.html belgium and britain also adopted the 7x49 and that the original FAL was in 7.92 kurz, and that venezuela adopted the 7x49 because they had the tooling already to make 7x57.
fack, i wish i could own a functioning FAL!
fack, i wish i could own a functioning FAL!
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googling 7x49 and venezuela doesn't yield a lot of info in english. from the sense i can make of that article, it is basically the same as everything we get in english regarding the adoption of the 7.62, the US forces NATO (OTAN) onto the 7.62x51.... uncontrolable in full auto, the M14 is a hybrid M1, the 7x49 (and enfield 280) were drawn from german and russian experiences in WWII and so forth. also that the FAL was adopted by 103 countries.
again off the topic of canadian rifles, were H&R and hi-standard licenced to make the FAL?
There is another bit of Army folklore which has it that DP Rosses and M1917 Enfields were also used as "jump" rifles at CJATC Rivers,MB. I have a couple of friends who were on staff there way back when and I will test their memory on this when I see them next. Rivers closed in 1971 so this is fading into ancient history.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
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7x49 Liviano was basically the "7mm Second Optimum" version of the .280/30 cartridge series.
The guns were later rebarreled to 7.62x51mm.
The guns were later rebarreled to 7.62x51mm.
