Sanity check on next rifle/optics choice

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dlau

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Ok, after a ton of reading, I think I've got the best performance/value for a long range rifle/sights, but I'd like everyone's opinions before I go ahead and buy everything.

The budget has to be reasonable, and I'll try to get some items used if possible. My main goal is to get something that works well from 100 yards out to 600+ ... weight isn't a big concern. I won't be reloading now, but could in the future, so I'm fine with shooting factory or match ammo.

That being said, I've selected the Savage 12BVSS in .308, and Bushnell 6-24X40 mil dot. I'm not sure what to choose for bases/rings/rails, but I've read that the burris sig rings/insert system provides a lot of flexibility.

Thanks!

Derek
 
Get a scope with the most elevation adjustment available. You never know when we might want to try 1000 yards. Burris Signature Rings with offset inserts is the way to go, without going to the expence of a tapered base.

To get the most out of your rifle at 600+ yards, reloading will be something to look into soon. You can get yourself set up for loading for about the price of 10 boxes of match ammo. Just because it says Match Ammo on the box doesn't mean your rifle will shoot it well. Tailoring your ammo to your rifle helps squeeze out more accuracy.
 
maynard said:
Get a scope with the most elevation adjustment available. You never know when we might want to try 1000 yards. Burris Signature Rings with offset inserts is the way to go, without going to the expence of a tapered base.

To get the most out of your rifle at 600+ yards, reloading will be something to look into soon. You can get yourself set up for loading for about the price of 10 boxes of match ammo. Just because it says Match Ammo on the box doesn't mean your rifle will shoot it well. Tailoring your ammo to your rifle helps squeeze out more accuracy.
Click to expand...



Ditto+1


Jamie
 
While the scope you are looking at is a decent one, it's certainly not optimal for your intended usage. FWIW, Bushnell is releasing a 30mm version of the 6x24 scope with 1/4" adjustabe target turrets later this year. If you can hold off that long for a scope, it may be the better choice for not much more money that you're going to spend now.

This particular scope should have adequate internal elevation and windage adjustment to easily get you out to 600 yds. without having to worry about tapered bases or offset rings. No info. on the Busnell site yet but it was demonstrated at SHOT Show and will debut at some point this year.
 
Your system will certainly be better than what I started long range shooting with. I had a very accurate .30-06 sporter which had a slight ballistic advantage over the .308 I now use, but my scope, a 3-9x, had nowhere near the 30 minutes of elevation I needed. At the range, and I would have to set up an aiming target on top of the berm, some 12' above my impact target.

A 20 or 25 minute base from Near Mfg, will help if you are running out of adjustment. If this is still not enough, you can purchase shim stock from Brownells or Sinclair to add a precise elevation increase to your base. Ideally, with your scope at the bottom of the elevation adjustment, you would be on, or nearly on at 100 yards. With this arrangement, you have full use of your elevation adjustment.

A word of warning, long range shooting can become obsessive. I still remember my first serious long range outing with that '06. I set up my target, and found a convenient shooting position 1200 yards away. I cranked up the scope to it's maximum elevation, settled into a good shooting position. A moment after the shot, and saw my bullet splash into an intervening pond - in the middle of a flock of geese two thirds of the way to the target. (There have been those who suggest that the geese where the real target that day, and I missed.) That was it, I was hooked.

If you are a handloader, it will force you to become a better handloader. You will be tempted to sign over your pay cheques to gunsmiths, and custom bullet makers. Enjoy!
 
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dlau said:
Ok, after a ton of reading, I think I've got the best performance/value for a long range rifle/sights, but I'd like everyone's opinions before I go ahead and buy everything.

The budget has to be reasonable, and I'll try to get some items used if possible. My main goal is to get something that works well from 100 yards out to 600+ ... weight isn't a big concern. I won't be reloading now, but could in the future, so I'm fine with shooting factory or match ammo.

That being said, I've selected the Savage 12BVSS in .308, and Bushnell 6-24X40 mil dot. I'm not sure what to choose for bases/rings/rails, but I've read that the burris sig rings/insert system provides a lot of flexibility.

Thanks!

Derek
Click to expand...
nd whilee you're at it, take a look at the equipment list for our raffle that is
for the FFMGA!
You can go almost anywhwere in a long range comp withh this rifle knowing that you have top drawer equipment!
Cat
 
From what I have both seen first-hand and read, Sightron scopes are approaching leupold quality but are closer to Bushnell pricing. The 6BR site did a comparison and the sightrons were considered the best value as I recall.

Don't bother with the raffle... your chances of winning are pretty crappy from what I hear... ;-)
 
pilgrim said:
theis advice is nothing with no examlpes :)
please tell us more, call names :)
Click to expand...

Sorry pilgrim, I am an iron sight shooter. Scopes to me are just to help see where I hit using the irons. I do know the some scopes have limited elevation.
Not a problem if you have a short range gun and a long range gun. But if you only have one rifle and want to shoot from 100 to 1000 yards, you will need something with 40 MOA or more.
You don't want to run it all the way to the bottom for 100 or all the way to the top for 1000. From what I understand as you get to either extremes you will lose windange adjustment. Not a problem at 100 but a huge problem at 1000. Some F Class shooters might want to jump if I am way out on this...John...Terry...Bob...anyone?
I don't care if my irons cost more then most scopes, I still like them for the time being.:dancingbanana:
 
My suggestion is to start with a 223. The ballistics of the 223 mimics the 308 with 1/2 the cost and 1/3 the recoil. Neither is ideal at LR. Handload to get the best bullets downrange. 75gr Amax is hard to beat.

For a factory, the 'best' savage is a 243. You will need to handload but you will need to anyways. The 260/6.5 Swede and 7-08/280 are excellent choices if you can find an appropriate rifle. Later this year, Savage will release a 9 twist 22/250. If you like the 22cal and want better zip, this is going to be hard to beat.

If you don't mind waiting a bit for barrels to cool, the 7RM is a wonderful cartridge for any needs out past a mile. Best bullet is the 162gr Amax but then you need to handload. 180gr Bergers if you can find them.

I shy away from the 30cal because the smaller bores offer much better ballistics for lower recoil and cost. If you want to LR hunt, then go big, otherwise, there is no prize for bruised shoulders.

I use the same Elite scope and can go from 300yds to about 1500yds with reticle and internal adjustments. This will a flatter shooting cartridge.

You will need about 20min to make the trip you want so that scope has plenty of adjustment. Not ideal but for the money, hard to beat (until new scopes come out).

Weaver bases and Burris Sig rings w/inserts. All you will ever need until your distances have 4 digits.

If you just want to make noise, then the 308 and factory ammo is fine. If you want to start hitting something small at 600yds, handloading in any of the cals above are a requirement.

Jerry
 
The .243 would be a great cartridge if it could be had in a rifle with a fast twist barrel. 1:10 doesn't cut it with long heavy VLD's or ULD's. That all but takes the .243 out of the equation for someone who wants an off the shelf rifle for long range work - at least if we call long range out near the 800-1000 yard mark.

The .223 isn't a bad choice, but is far more wind sensitive than than a .308. This place tends to be windy, and there are days I can shoot with decent expectations of success with the .308, where I might as well of leave the .22 at home.

The moderate cartridges in 6.5 and 7mm would share many advantages associated with the .308, and will give similar performance with a little less recoil. They would certainly be worth considering.
 
If anyone has a chance to shoot some 87gr Vmax or 90gr Lapuas at 3300fps from a 243, their opinion on not adequate for 1000m will quickly change. At 600m, it flies really really well.

Is it as good (wind drift wise) as a 115gr 6mm going 3100fps, NO but not by that much. Is it better then a 155gr from a 308 pushing 2900fps, no comparison.

The 223 continues to get a bad rep on this continent as the promoters of the 308 are plentiful. Funny thing is that in many other countries, the 223 is doing just fine side by side the 308. In service rifle shooting in the US to at least 600yds, the 223 dominates but that may also be due in large part to a far more accurate rifle.

In any case, the 223 and the 75gr Amax can get going to 3000fps (that's a SAAMI spec load by the way) from a Savage pipe. With a printed BC of 0.435 (real world likely higher), that equals/beats many common 308 loads. With a faster twist and the 80 or 90gr bullets, the 223 WILL keep up all the way to 1000yds.

Many sing that the 308 will push a 155gr Palma to 3000fps or a 175gr MK to 2800fps. Maybe, but without a very long barrel or a 'fast' barrel shot at elevated velocities, forget it. The 308 is rated at 2850fps for the 155gr and 2650 or LESS for the 175grMK (that's SAAMI spec loads too).

The 308 is no LR wind cheater by any stretch (neither is the 223). It's survivial is simply the continued use in NATO and thus many uniformed services. Ballistically, it is the worse in this case volume when comparing the options today from 22cal to 7mm.

As to comparing the 308, even its best loads, to what the 260 and 7-08 can do today, like comparing NASCAR to F1.

Shooting is alot of fun and debunks much of the info garnered in magazines and some sites.

Jerry
 
Sightron

Having owned a Sightron and having a friend who owned a different model I can say from experience that if you plan on usig it in colder weather then buy something else. The parrallex adjustment on the Sightron scopes gets sluggish and will actually sieze at around -10 degrees C. As for everything else they are not bad, their adjustment range tends to be a bit limited but not something that can't be overcome. If it were me (and it was) I would save up for a bit longer and get a decent Leupold. Buy good quality and service once and save money in the long run.

Just my .02

John
 
mysticplayer said:
If anyone has a chance to shoot some 87gr Vmax or 90gr Lapuas at 3300fps from a 243, their opinion on not adequate for 1000m will quickly change. At 600m, it flies really really well.

Is it as good (wind drift wise) as a 115gr 6mm going 3100fps, NO but not by that much. Is it better then a 155gr from a 308 pushing 2900fps, no comparison.

The 223 continues to get a bad rep on this continent as the promoters of the 308 are plentiful. Funny thing is that in many other countries, the 223 is doing just fine side by side the 308. In service rifle shooting in the US to at least 600yds, the 223 dominates but that may also be due in large part to a far more accurate rifle.

In any case, the 223 and the 75gr Amax can get going to 3000fps (that's a SAAMI spec load by the way) from a Savage pipe. With a printed BC of 0.435 (real world likely higher), that equals/beats many common 308 loads. With a faster twist and the 80 or 90gr bullets, the 223 WILL keep up all the way to 1000yds.

Many sing that the 308 will push a 155gr Palma to 3000fps or a 175gr MK to 2800fps. Maybe, but without a very long barrel or a 'fast' barrel shot at elevated velocities, forget it. The 308 is rated at 2850fps for the 155gr and 2650 or LESS for the 175grMK (that's SAAMI spec loads too).

The 308 is no LR wind cheater by any stretch (neither is the 223). It's survivial is simply the continued use in NATO and thus many uniformed services. Ballistically, it is the worse in this case volume when comparing the options today from 22cal to 7mm.

As to comparing the 308, even its best loads, to what the 260 and 7-08 can do today, like comparing NASCAR to F1.

Shooting is alot of fun and debunks much of the info garnered in magazines and some sites.

Jerry
Click to expand...

I for one do not understand the fascination with the 155 Palma Bullet, except that it is mandated in some sanctioned competitions. The 200 gr MK loaded in a .308 at 2450 outstrips the 155 at 2900 in both trajectory and wind drift. I believe that the .308 is an adequate, if unspectacular long range performer with the heavier bullets up to 220 grs. I wanted the 240 to work, but the low velocity possible from the .308 means that we have crossed the boundry of diminishing returns. I am interested in trying the new 210 gr. MK when it becomes available. Perhaps this summer I will try to get some Berger 210's.

According to my ballistics program, the light weight 6mm bullets don't look so hot either, but the 107 MK or the 115 VLD's are another story entirely. When I get around to building another target rifle, it will undoubtedly be a .243 with a fast twist. It really bugs me that the sleek 107 gr MK's won't shoot in my Lilja 1:10 .243, but 105 gr Speers do.

Lyle Linkatis opened my eyes as to what was possible with a 6mm 10 years ago. I admit I was a nonbeliever until that time. He was however unable to bring me to embrace the 6PPC.
 
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The light 6mm bullets going fast enough are very impressive. Certainly no worse then what a 6BR can do, which is considerable. Give the 90gr Lapuas a try in your 243, they fly really well at 1000m. Not sure if there is a Berger in the 95gr range.

I am surprised that you like the real heavy 30cals in the 308. That has got to push quite a bit. I just compared the 200gr MK to the 155gr Scenar and they are pretty much the same out to 1000yds. The Scenar drifted a bit less.

The 223 with a 75gr Amax at 3000fps mimiced your heavy load all the way out too. Big reason why I am not enamored with the 308. Just too much recoil for the performance.

By contrast the 6.5's and 7mm are running about 45% less wind drift at 1000yds.

Jerry
 
My .308 weighs 18 pounds, which has a calming effect on the recoil.

DSC_00223.jpg


I will try the 90 gr. Lapuas in the .243, and let you know what I think. From what you are saying they should tolerate dropping subsonic without stability issues. My .243 is more of a hunting/varmint rifle, and up until now I have not pushed it beyond 600 yards.

M-7.jpg
 
The guy that competes with his Savage 243 out to 1000m uses both the 87gr Vmax and 90gr Lapua's. I have shot with him out to 1000m and those bullets sure fly well. In the moderate to light winds of that day, he was keeping right there with my 6.5 Mystic on some very small rocks.

I have shot the Vmax before so know how well they fly (was using a 6BR).

You have two very nice looking rigs. Have you throated the 308 long to seat those heavies out a bit more?

My shoulder is toast so have become very aware of recoil in rifles especially those I will compete with. Nice part is there is so much development for new bullets in the smaller bores. We no longer have to put up with recoil to get low wind drift.

Do post your results with the 6mm bullets.
Jerry
 
The 308"s chamber was throated long so a 200 gr MK could be seated into the lands with only the boat-tail extending below the neck of the case. The barrel is a 28" Kreiger 1:8.

I'll keep in touch with regards to my 6mm exploits. I should have time to tweak some cases before the bullets arrive.

I've been lucky with regards to injuries or debilitating medical conditions. Maybe shooting the .375 Ultra from prone is making my shoulder stronger. I could rent it to you, if you are interested in some therapy. ;)
 
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dlau said:
Ok, after a ton of reading, I think I've got the best performance/value for a long range rifle/sights, but I'd like everyone's opinions before I go ahead and buy everything.

The budget has to be reasonable, and I'll try to get some items used if possible. My main goal is to get something that works well from 100 yards out to 600+ ... weight isn't a big concern. I won't be reloading now, but could in the future, so I'm fine with shooting factory or match ammo.

That being said, I've selected the Savage 12BVSS in .308, and Bushnell 6-24X40 mil dot. I'm not sure what to choose for bases/rings/rails, but I've read that the burris sig rings/insert system provides a lot of flexibility.

Thanks!

Derek
Click to expand...

Derek - the Burris system on Weaver bases is the cheapest route and should not be a problem with your rifle (mild recoil). You could go to grand slam bases (steel) but for this application the good old Weaver Alum ones are fine and matched to the Burris system. We have a sale on the Sig. Rings and also sell the Offset kits. A one piece TPS rail 0moa would offer you many scope ring positions (to support and best fit the scope) and is about $80ish or so...

Resale value of the said Burris products is fair as well.

If you decide to go to a better quality and stronger system, I can't think of a better product then TPS AL7075 grade rings and bases. $160ish ball park and your off to the races. Some of the competition's bases out there cost more then that and the law of dimishing returns does apply!

I like the power range of the scope you mentioned and it will allow you minimize human sighting error and give you optimal magnification. It is a bit long, but the one piece picatinney style rail will help with providing proper scope tube support.

We have tons of product to pick from and all of them can be made to work.

Joe
 
2bad4u2 said:
While the scope you are looking at is a decent one, it's certainly not optimal for your intended usage. FWIW, Bushnell is releasing a 30mm version of the 6x24 scope with 1/4" adjustabe target turrets later this year. If you can hold off that long for a scope, it may be the better choice for not much more money that you're going to spend now.

This particular scope should have adequate internal elevation and windage adjustment to easily get you out to 600 yds. without having to worry about tapered bases or offset rings. No info. on the Busnell site yet but it was demonstrated at SHOT Show and will debut at some point this year.
Click to expand...

30mm is the objective size?? Wouldn't that let less light in, or am I misinterpreting the specs?
 
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