Savage 10ML II

BIGREDD

BIGREDD

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Anybody own one of these new Savage M/L's... I have not had the oportunity to shoot one... and am interested in the smokeless powder ability of these M/L's :?:
Frankly the fact that they recommend smokeless powder has me wondering... I don't think it will be too long before we hear about a catastrophic occurance with one.
They Smokless Powders that they recommend are far from slow burning and the margin for error simply astounds me :?
 
I shot one back in November, The only complaint with the owner was a lot of mifires. The gun is accurate and does not foul up as quickly as BP according to him. You should have taken up my invite that day and you could have tried it out Redd. :wink:
 
Hey REDD, I saw a note on another board, that said a failure had occured!! Muzzleloading guru, Toby Bridges had one go KB. He was the main force behind the testing and hype of this gun. Now from what I have heard, he is totally against them. I was really thinking of getting one until I heard about this...have to stick with my Encore.
 
I shoot one. Love it. I get sub moa groups at 100. Imr 4227 is well known for misfires, and most have moved on to other powders. I personally have never experienced a misfire. I use IMR 4759. This gun keeps extrememly clean and you do not have to clean immediatley after use like you do with other black powder substitutes like pyrodex or triple 777. Smokeless powder must be weighed, as a load that is off by a grain can change poi. You can use pyrodex or triple seven in this gun if that what you choose. Then you load your loads like normal.

The main reason for using this gun for me is that it is the strongest muzzleloader in mass production period. Second reason is the ability to not have to clean the gun immediatley everytime I use it when using smokeless powder. Third reason is the accutrigger. Love it.

Toby was the main test pilot for this gun at one time. He had over 5000 rounds through the gun that failed. I've heard of Sako's that have failed after only a few rounds. Every gun manufacturer has had failures. The Savage ML-II is the only muzzleloader reconized by saami(Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute). The issue between Toby and Savage and the founder/patent holder(Mr.Ball) is a money issue that turned personal when Toby's subcontract was terminated and he felt like he wasn't compensated properly for work done. Toby has hundreds of rounds through savage muzzleloaders since the incident. This is all old news.

The choice is yours. I was in your shoes a year ago and I decided to get all the information I could. I am very happy with my choice.

Your best bet is to find a competent ml-II shooter in your area and go to the range with him.

Here is some more reading on the ml-II
http://www.savageshooters.com/muzzleloader.html

R
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209X50:
Hey REDD, I saw a note on another board, that said a failure had occured!! Muzzleloading guru, Toby Bridges had one go KB. He was the main force behind the testing and hype of this gun. Now from what I have heard, he is totally against them. I was really thinking of getting one until I heard about this...have to stick with my Encore.
Click to expand...

WARNING!
Due to a blown Model 10ML II and the reports of others seriously damaged by smokeless powders, HPM no longer recommends the use of these powders in the Savage built muzzleloader.

This warning came right off The High Performance Muzzleloader Site :shock:
 
Big Redd

Hey BigRedd,

I've been following the incident closely. I have conversed with Toby before and after the incident. Unfortuneatley this accident set off a series of events that became personal between Toby and Savage. Toby is still a fan of smokeless muzzleloading. Does he own any more savage muzzleloaders? Of course. Has he shot them since the failure? Of course. He has hundreds of rounds through them since the failure. Does he own and shoot any other custom built smokeless muzzleloaders? Of course he does. He is a muzzleloading nut in the extreme. It is his hobby, his job, his passion.

The number 1 reason for the Savage failure is metal fatigue. The rifle that blew had more than 7,500 rounds through it. Savage builds the strongest muzzleloader in mass production today period.

Both Savage and Toby Bridges are looking at trying to improve this gun. But ask yourself this. When would you consider your gun burnt out, and after how many rnds would you retire your rifle? Would your rifle make 7,500 rnds, 5000rnds, or even 1000 rnds? In fact Toby has another Savage muzzleloader with even more rnds through it than the one that failed.

Truth of the matter is Toby was the main testing guy for Savage. He loves the ml-II. He has more rnds through it than anyone else. Unfortunatley he doesn't feel the same way about Savage Arms. Toby is a perfectionist. He is now trying his d@mndest to discredit Savage Arms the only way he knows how, but not because the rifle failed but because of how Savage handled the incident, and what transpired after. I don't blame him for it but I still love my ml-II. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same thing.

I know I'll never shoot 500 rnds through my Savage ml-II, but everytime I clean it I do look for any signs of wear as everyone should do no matter what you shoot.

If you decide you want to learn more about smokeless muzzleloading I can point you in the right direction.

R
 
Rukidding asks would your rifle last more than 5000 rounds; my principle rifle until this fall, is by no means worn out and still going strong with easily 4-5000 rounds through it. That is only 250 rounds per year for 20 years. One old timer, now disceased told me that he usually replaced his barrel after about 10,000 rounds because it/ they were loosing their accuracy. he was on his third barrel as I recall but there was no suggestion that the barrel would fail from metal fatigue.
Finally I often shoot original damascus barreled rifles and none of them have failed after roughly 150 years of shooting and lying dormant.
I think that if the Savage fails from metal fatigue, it is probably because the smokeless loads give the metal a much harder and sharper shock than black powder, although on further thought--- howcome cartridge guns don't blow up from fatigue after 5000 + shots?

Cheers mooncoon
 
Mooncoon

Hey Mooncoon,

That's interesting. and you made me rethink what I said. I still believe barrels(of course not all barrels) can wear out in 1000 rnds. I made the comment because I have talked with guys behind the counter at a gun shop who have replaced their barrels after 1000rnds. They said their barrels were done. (maybe I shouldn't have used the analogy when I did)I did a quick search anyways and found this article in seconds. I'm sure I could find more if I looked. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_49/ai_102274468
Some guys like to shoot heavy loads in there guns and are hard on their barrels. Especially now with the ultra mags, and the short action ultra mags. Some guys are neat freaks and clean their barrels to death. But I understand your point of view and respect your experiences. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, only defend the Savage muzzleloader. I do understand your point that when the barrel is done it shouldn't blow, but accuracy should fall off first showing signs of wear. This being the only testing of a smokeless muzzleloader at the time not much was known how this gun would react after 7,500 documented rnds.

As for why the savage muzzleloader exactly failed. There isn't an official reason yet as results from the testing done by Savage were inconclusive. I was going by the word of the person who was shooting it when it blew. Some people have accused him of blowing it with a barrel obstruction. Some people have accused other things as well on both sides. Until an independent company can test the gun, no one will know exactly. Every manufacturer has had failures but of course it is not the norm. Otherwise we wouldn't buy them.

I do know that smokeless loads create higher pressures than pyrodex. That's been proven. I think they can even create higher amounts of pressure on the barrel than certain centerfire loads because there is no case to contain initial pressures. That is why Savage is the only muzzleloader safe to use smokeless powder in.

The rifle that was provided by Savage for Toby was the only one that has blown. No Savage muzzleloader that has ever been sold to a consumer like you and me has ever blown up. (knock on wood).

Do I feel safe shooting my ML-II? YES 8) I don't punch much paper with it now that I am happy with my load for it, but it will provide me many years of hunting pleasure.

I think I have been over ambititous with the muzzleloader talk. I will try to be less ambitious next time. :)

R
 
I was not trying to flame RU in my comments but only to suggest that the idea of metal fatigue does not completely hold up. If metal fatigue is the reason then I seem to recall that there was a controversy about one specific metal with the trade name of "stress relieved" and concievably Savage used it or a similar product in their barrels. Alternately however, the issue was a controversy and I don't believe ever proven to be applicable to all/most barrels of that metal or even the barrel which burst.
With modern smokeless cartridge rifles, I don't think it is the rifling as such which wears out but rather the throat area which erodes from gas cutting when relatively large charges are driving a bullet at high velocity through a bottle neck case. I suspect that a gun with a straight case like a 45-70 or a muzzle loader loaded with smokeless would take vastly more shots to achieve throat erosion compared to say the .17 and .22 cal super high velocity varmint rifles.
One final thought is that there have been occasional barrel blowups caused by reduced charges of slow burning powders causing pressure spikes. For this to apply to a muzzle loader, I would think that the bullet would have to be seated 1" - 2" short of the powder and I am skeptical of that happening with an experienced shooter.

Cheers mooncoon
 
I was not trying to flame RU in my comments
Click to expand...

Hey Mooncoon,
I know you weren't trying to flame me. When I reread what I wrote I felt like I was talking like an @$%. I just wanted to let everyone know that was not my intent.

I agree that a barrel obstruction of some sort is most likely in this case. Even with an experienced shooter like Toby, things can happen while talking with others and loading at the same time. This is also why accusations have been made. How could something like this happen to such an accomplished shooter? Was it shooter error or why would a rifle that withstood 7,500 similar rnds suddenly let go?

I know guys have shot ramrods out of their ml-II's before by accident and their barrels never blew but I do think a few of them did buldge.

On a side note, I picked up some 200 gr sst's today. Still have to get the right sabots to shoot out of the .50 ml-II. Can't wait to see how they perform. 8)

R
 
When it comes to people shooting ramrods ; there are two kinds of peopel ---- them that has and them that's going to :>) :>) The most impressive one that I have seen was a 3 foot long solid brass 3/8" diameter rod shot out of a TC hawken 50 cal. It landed about 35 yards away and was 1 foot or more below the point of aim :>)

Cheers Doug
 
Savage

Well ,,,Muzzle Deer Season is fast approching here in Manitoba and I was just out at the range sighting in my Knight.
In Manitoba you must fire the gun before you call it a day.I hate cleaning the gun every night after having to fire it into a stump .
This Savage is beginning to interest me as I wouldn't have to clean it constantly.
I was wondering if there's any news on the Savage Dependability issue.Do they make a carbine ?
Where's the cheapest place in Canada to buy one ?
 
Best place to get one is at SIR in winnipeg. They are the only ones that I have found that have any on stock. Their prices on the ml-ii are about right as well. They do take more effort to set up than a knight, but once they are set up maintenance is quite a bit less than other muzzleloaders.

I haven't heard of any news on the savage dependability front. I haven't had any problems with mine.

The laminate stock is their best stock. If you go with the synthetic stock, don't get the camo. Paint on mine is already starting to wear. Other than that stick within savages recommended loads and you should do fine.

Let me know if you need recommendations on powder selection.

R
 
I love mine....I made my dad buy one today...at whole sale.....his is stainless because he has a ####ty track record of cleaning guns....the 10ml is the only way to go....



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Hi,

I just bought Savage ML10-II. Just great.

I have some diffuculties to buy powders ? Where do you get yours ? Is it possible by UPS or LOOMIS ???

Thank you.................................................Gerald...Quebec city............/
 
All you Composite Stocked Savage M/L owners out there,,,are you happy with the Comp/ Stocks or would you prefer the Laminated Stock ?

The Yanks on Modern Muzzleloader are sure anti-comp...

I took back my Lam/stocked gun because of imperfections in the stock finish and poor action fit and ordered a Black Comp/SS gun.

What do you think ? :confused:
 
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