Savage 11 FCNS or Norinco M-14S?

UncleMax

UncleMax

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Ottawa, ON
Hello Gentlemen,

This is my first post, having just joined CGN a week ago, and bought my first rifle, an SKS from Marstar, two days later (!). I haven't fired a long gun since I left the Reserves twenty years ago, but have always missed it, and will go back to the range soon to see whether it really is like riding a bike. That, and I'd like to get into deer hunting, but face a limited budget.

Like other CGNers though, while buying one rifle, I'm already thinking of the next one, and was hoping the circle of wisdom (and occasional wisecracks – or crackpots...) that haunts this forum can assist me in a choice between two rifles.

I've determined that the calibre of choice is .308/7.62x51 (which I have enjoyed shooting belt-fed...), and due to budgetary limitations and the expectation that I will only hunt in Ontario and Quebec, my choices are between the Norinco M-14S and the Savage Model 11 FCNS with AccuTrigger and AccuStock. Frankly, the Norinco M-14S is closer to my budgetary constraints at $429, than the Savage at $660, and from what I've read, is rather fun to shoot...

I would love your experienced opinions on the pros and cons of each rifle for the stated purposes of range shooting, and primarily deer hunting, with flexibility to expand to other game down the road. If you have other affordable options to consider as well, that would be great. :)

Thanks for the help. :)
 
Taking a stance, I would favor the Savage because to me, accuracy is supreme. You already have a semi auto fun gun in the SKS.

If you don't want to spend the $660 on the Savage, consider a Stevens rifle, which is basically the same but with a cheaper stock and non-accutrigger. Change the spring on the trigger for a few dollars and swap the stock to a laminate boyds stock for around $100 when the budget can afford it.

Getting great accuracy from the M14s is expensive, and a decent scope mount will cost you $250 or more and it still might be an exercise in frustration. The M14s is also hard on scopes.
 
Thanks Grizzlypeg, those points are great clarifications, and I never thought of the Stevens as a viable option before. :) I didn't realize I'd have to spend more to make the M-14S more accurate, particularly as I would likely be hunting in wooded areas. Also didn't know about the M-14S's scope abuse... It does sound fun though. You wouldn't know offhand whether it would accept the Australian International Arms 10-round magazine? Thanks again. :)
 
I'd also go with the Savage for the same reasons mentioned. I would also consider one of the package jobs, if only for the detach mag over the Stevens, they have a little nicer fit and finish, and a much cushier recoil pad. Yes I know the optics, and rings aren't the best, but they do work. I've got a buddy that bought one of these over 5yrs ago, and is still hammering game with the factory package scope on it, and it's a 300 win mag. Lastly don't count out something in a nice used model on the exchange.

P.S. Nice choice on the chambering, you're way to sensible for this place ;)
 
Thanks Homesteader, I think I may have to work on saving for the Savage as I much, much prefer detachable magazines, and look at the practicality and value of a package job. Here's hoping my wife doesn't find out... because I also need to budget for a 12-gauge pump shotgun, and a decent .22 rifle (likely a Savage with the AccuTrigger).

My gratitude. :)
 
UncleMax said:
Hello Gentlemen,

This is my first post, having just joined CGN a week ago, and bought my first rifle, an SKS from Marstar, two days later (!). I haven't fired a long gun since I left the Reserves twenty years ago, but have always missed it, and will go back to the range soon to see whether it really is like riding a bike. That, and I'd like to get into deer hunting, but face a limited budget.

Like other CGNers though, while buying one rifle, I'm already thinking of the next one, and was hoping the circle of wisdom (and occasional wisecracks – or crackpots...) that haunts this forum can assist me in a choice between two rifles.

I've determined that the calibre of choice is .308/7.62x51 (which I have enjoyed shooting belt-fed...), and due to budgetary limitations and the expectation that I will only hunt in Ontario and Quebec, my choices are between the Norinco M-14S and the Savage Model 11 FCNS with AccuTrigger and AccuStock. Frankly, the Norinco M-14S is closer to my budgetary constraints at $429, than the Savage at $660, and from what I've read, is rather fun to shoot...

I would love your experienced opinions on the pros and cons of each rifle for the stated purposes of range shooting, and primarily deer hunting, with flexibility to expand to other game down the road. If you have other affordable options to consider as well, that would be great. :)

Thanks for the help. :)
Click to expand...

Heres the problem. You posted this question in the hunting rifle sub forum So most peole here will be biased. So everyone here is going to pick the savage rifle beacause its a hunting rifle. If you posted this question in the Black Rifle sub forum everyone there would probaly pick the Norinco M305. So the answer to your question would have to be to buy both ofcourse:D

In all seriousness though you dont need a accutrigger to hunt deer or to have fun at the range. I also assume you want the Norc M305 becase of your past military experience in using black rifles. I love nostalgia too. The M305 is very capable of taking deer and also having fun at the range. The Savage well not so much range fun. Plus the money you would save buying the Norinco you could use to get yourself a pile of .308 ammo to get started with. Well thats my to cents.

The SkS you bought can also be used for deer hunting as well. I wouldn't shoot at anything past a hundred meters with it though. It also has the nice pigsticker on the front which comes in handy for all those agressive chipmunks i keep running into out in the forrests.
 
It'd be easier to put a scope on the Savage. One of their 'packages' might be right for you. Comes with a low end but serviceable scope. Epp's is listing several Axis XP's (.243, .308 or .30-06) with the "RealTree Snow camouflage" synthetic stock with a 3X-9x x 40mm scope for $357. Paint the stock. Then change the scope when money allows.
$346.12 for a Stevens 200 with no sights. Grey, pillar bedded, synthetic stock. The cost of the scope and mounts plus installation(most shops will do that for free when you buy a new rifle) is something you need to think about.
Don't discount buying a used hunting rifle either. It takes a great deal of abuse to damage a modern hunting rifle.
 
Take a look at the Marlin XS7!

Having owned a Savage model 11(pre accutriger) as well as 2 Stevens 200's, as well as a Savage Model 12 BVSS, I can agree that out of the box they all shot very well in every chambering I have owned.

That said for a hunting rifle the Marlin offers every advantage of the Savage, including a trigger that is almost identical to the Accutrigger. It is also very accurate and my .243 shoots MOA with cheap factory ammo. Some guys on here have gotten under 1/2 moa with hand loads, but it is a hunting rifle for me so I don't bother. The stock is much nicer than the Stevens though, and the price is a lot cheaper than the Savage you are looking at. It also comes with a much better recoil pad, as well as a one piece base which works pretty well for me.

I bought mine at Ellwood Epps in the camo stock for $400 + tax, but the basic black is around $360.

I can't say enough good about this gun!

I topped it off with a Bushnell 3200 Elite 3-9x40, and it is one hell of a rig for $615 + tax!!!!!!!!
 
Gentlemen, your opinions are quite appreciated; I am certainly learning as more of you aggregate your experience for me. Thanks!

Stovepipe699, thank you for the welcome, I will certainly try to sign up for the EE, as it has been recommended as a good source for used, affordable, and well-cared-for rifles. Though I believe I will have to defend Norinco products, just because they are manufactured in China does not mean they are of poor quality, that comes down the level of QC maintained at the relevant factory.

Based on my past experience, I’ve always found it amusing when fashionable people rave about items “Made in Italy,” at which time I usually remind them that Italy produces both the Ferrari and the Fiat… :)

Ebola, I believe you are quite right about the hunting location of my post and the possibility of bias against the Norinco M-14S (should I repost in the Black Rifle section?), about which I have heard positive hunting stories, and the cost differential would certainly end up spent on practice/fun ammunition. I definitely want to cut my teeth in deer hunting with my SKS, which I frankly will not modify in any way, and believe I understand its inherent advantages and limitations.

While I had not thought about it before, you are entirely right about the nostalgia factor in my favouring the M-14S, though concerns were raised about its abuse of scopes. I also didn’t realize the Savage would be less fun at the range. Could you please explain why?
 
Savages have a good reputation for out-of-the-box accuracy.
I shot a doe during last year's hunting season with a Savage 111F in 243 Win.

My rifle is about 15 years old and doesn't have accustock or accutrigger but still made the 130 yard shot...
 
Check out Ellwood Epps, at the top of the page, a sponsor. I went there in Orillia, then they have alot of guns for a great price for a small little dump in the middle of knowere..no offence guys, because there is some charm to your old walk down the ramp entrance from one building to the next..LOL..

They have the best prices around for Savage rifles. $583 will get you the savage you want in .308 win. The Norinco M14s is a tank to carry around all day deer hunting, unless your driving around on a ATV. I bought one, and sold it pretty quickly when I decided that it would be too much to lug around all day long. They are great guns for shooting at a range, but not for walking around in a bush all day.

As it has been mentioned here also, a Savage Edge/Axis rifle is a okay rifle for under $400 and it comes with a half a$$ed scope also. I would try to hold out for a Savage 11FCNS, because they are a quality rifle that are accurate, and is something that will last for years and could be passed on to the next generation of hunters.

Check your "private message" section at the top right of this page. I sent you a message with a little bit more information.
 
if you decide to reload( roll your own) or if you count brass as nothing, get the 305- if you place value on your components, get a bolt or something else- while you'll STORIES of "my 305 puts them all in a neat pile over my right shoulder, the question is- ALL 20 of them?- there's always one or 2 that go awol unless you use a brass catcher- you also have the175 grain limit and the pressure curve to deal with- i've carried a 308 for years and while i have m14s, i wouldn't pick it as my first rifle or a number 1 hunting rifle- it's a service rifle, best reserved for matches
 
Bolts vs Semi

I own a M14, Mini-14, Browning BAR, Rem 700, Weatherby Vanguard, Tikka T3, rem 7600 and Browning BLR .

Forget nostalgia for a moment and think practically. Bolt actions are inherently more accurate (out of the box) than ANY semi (again, out of the box).

I use them all for hunting, but prefer one over another, depending on my application.

Coyote - inside of 150 yards, bush, cover - mini-14. Wide open ranges - (243) Rem 7600. The second choice goes to the Tikka and Weatherby (both in .243). My Rem is really accurate at long ranges and I have a faster followup shot.

Deer - similar to the coyote, I use my Rem and/or M14 if in cover areas and areas of cover within 200-300 yards. For 300 yards or greater, I prefer my BAR (30-06) as it is lighter and easier to scope than the M14. The BLR (30-06) is ok as well, but just a tad bit slower for a second shot and will sometimes jam if mag not firmly secured. I prefer my M14 with open sights as a friend has a scope attachment and once in a while a casing will stovepipe at the range. Also, if walking the fields is your thing, an M14 can be a pig to lug around all day (10 lbs).

Long Range work - 300 plus yards or big game. My preference is reversed. I prefer my Weatherby Bolt (30-06) to the BAR as it tends to shoot tighter groups (benchrest) at 300 yards.

I reload so I have some really nice shooting recipes.

So in your case, as much as I love my M14, I would go for the bolt gun if hunting is the primary goal. Then save up for an M14 for fun stuff.
 
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Gentlemen, it is settled, I am going to hold out and save up for a Savage 11 FCNS in .308 and the best optics I can afford so I can have my one flexible hunting rifle platform. I will also keep my eye on the EE for an affordable used offering of this lovely tool. Down the road, if my financial situation improves (not likely if I want a fourth child…) perhaps I can consider the M-14S as another fun gun.

In the meantime, I will acquaint myself with the personality of my newly-acquired SKS and get some much-deserved range time. After 20 years of not having shot a long gun, I feel like I’m coming home.

Thank you again, gentlemen, your advice and recommendations have been invaluable, and quite appreciated. :)
 
Good choice, for all the reasons mentioned. Except perhaps that the norinco M14 is inferior due to being made in China. there are a lot[/I of them in Canada right now, and just about all of them are good shooters and even rival the Springields for a fraction of the price, many happy customers can attest to this.
Your Chinese sks may not group well because they were simply following the original specs too closely. ;)
Anyway, enjoy your purchase!
 
UncleMax,

First off welcome to CGN. Good choice on calibers wanting something versatile yet very common like .308. Brass and other components are very easy to come by should you choose to reload

Speaking as a former Norinco M-14S owner and current Savage owner I think I can speak to the pros and cons:

I was the previous owner of a an M-14 accurized by Skullboy (look at all the stickies in Main Battle Rifle forum to see who he is). It was an amazing rifle but a little heavy for carrying in the bush for extended periods of time. A 3 point sling helped a lot and I used it on week long hunting trips with no problem. Having said that I had a lot of money tied up in one rifle that wasn't as accurate as I wanted it to be. Pretty hard for a semi-auto to beat a bolt action in terms of accuracy. The M-14/M-305 platform is also limited to bullets that are less than 175 grains. As much fun as my M-14 was .308 is a little pricey to be a range fun gun (even though I reload, my CZ-858 and 10-22 fill that niche for a lot cheaper) and wasn't as accurate as I wanted.

Semi-auto centerfires barrels must be 18.5". If a gunsmith manufactures the barrel you can get shorter for a bolt action. My goal is to one day have a 16" barrel on my Savage.

I bought a Savage 11F package (non-accutrigger, detachable mag) and was very impressed with it. I am planning on upgrading the stock eventually. What really impresses me about the Savage rifles is how easily the average person can swap out the barrels and do a lot of their own work. If you do go the Savage route Mysticplayer is an excellent resource (he is also a CGN sponsor). You can change bolt heads and go to different calibers if you find another you prefer.

In the end pick the one you like the best. You can't go wrong with either choice.
 
I own an M14, I love it, but beware with semi-auto you will burn through quite a bit of ammo, and considering that you are hunting I would go with the Savage, it is much lighter, and as for accuracy goes, you may be a bit better with the Savage. If budget is your problem I second a Savage Stevens, they can be had for much less.
 
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