Savage BAT
- Thread starter TR11
- Start date
Question,
So I've picked my load that I like best so far. It isnt the smallest group I managed in testing, but it had the most consistent speeds in the chony, with the lowest ES of 20.
I settled on 175 SMK jumped 0.010", 43.0 grains varget, Lapua sorted Brass, Winchester Primers.
This load ran 0.239" at 100 yards, at 2690 FPS@10' from muzzle. I used 50 of this load yesterday at a precision practice match clinic @100-500 yards and was very impressed still with the accuracy and ease of come ups from JBM ballistics charts using G1 curves. This load still should be supersonic at 1000.
I tested 42.5-43.9 in .2 incremets (jammed 0.010) and 42.5-43.5 (jumped 0.010)
My question is, I just received my shipment of CCI BR2 primers which I want to start using, and Im wondering if this will change the load and I'll have to redo some more testing of various charges of powder? What will this effect? Can I expect the same accuracy?
If this is the case, Ill just continue to use the WLR primers for the 175 SMK.
I have 155 lapuas now to start a load, and I'll use the CCI's forsure for that. Im hoping they will still be fine with a 24" 1:10 barrel.
So I've picked my load that I like best so far. It isnt the smallest group I managed in testing, but it had the most consistent speeds in the chony, with the lowest ES of 20.
I settled on 175 SMK jumped 0.010", 43.0 grains varget, Lapua sorted Brass, Winchester Primers.
This load ran 0.239" at 100 yards, at 2690 FPS@10' from muzzle. I used 50 of this load yesterday at a precision practice match clinic @100-500 yards and was very impressed still with the accuracy and ease of come ups from JBM ballistics charts using G1 curves. This load still should be supersonic at 1000.
I tested 42.5-43.9 in .2 incremets (jammed 0.010) and 42.5-43.5 (jumped 0.010)
My question is, I just received my shipment of CCI BR2 primers which I want to start using, and Im wondering if this will change the load and I'll have to redo some more testing of various charges of powder? What will this effect? Can I expect the same accuracy?
If this is the case, Ill just continue to use the WLR primers for the 175 SMK.
I have 155 lapuas now to start a load, and I'll use the CCI's forsure for that. Im hoping they will still be fine with a 24" 1:10 barrel.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
If you are using 5-shot groups, an ES of 20 is very good. If this is for 10 or 15 shot groups, this is extremely good. Either way, this load definitely sounds like it is 1000-yard-ready.
You'll get very good results with both G1 and G7 data out to 600 yards (and perhaps even 800), especially if you pay attention to the important details (actual muzzle velocity, air temperature and altitude, actual size of scope clicks). At 1000 yards, the G7 will be giving better results than the G1, due to the fact that the G7 drag curve is a much better fit to a typical match bullet than the G1 curve. At ranges well in excess of 1000 yards, the G7 data will be very noticeably better.
You never can be sure when you switch primers, and you really need to test in order to be *SURE*, but to be honest it's a pretty low-risk switch. I would do it, especially since this is only a "preliminary good load" (you have not yet invested in carefully chrono'ing a 15+ shot string, or shooting a 15+ shot group at 1000 yards in ideal conditions, etc). Even more so, you'd be replacing one probably-good-primer (WLR) with another probably-good-primer (BR2). In the little bit of primer testing that I have done, I haven't seen one primer produce better or worse grouping than another, and the most change in velocity I saw (using a Fed GM215M) was a lot less than I expected (25fps IIRC).
I am curious what COAL you are using with your 175 SMKs...? (trying to figure out if the Lapua 155s will end up fitting your chamber well or poorly - it's much easier to work with them with a longer throat).
The Lapua 155s tend to be quite fussy to get shooting reliably well (whereas the Sierra 155, 168 and 175 are a piece of cake). The Lapua 155s are an extremely high quality bullet, so if you do figure out how to get them shooting well in your rifle, you'll have a very competitive load. They'll work just fine in a 1-10" twist, and just fine in a 24" barrel. Use Varget, try ten thou off and ten thou in, and explore the 44.5-46.5 grain charge weight. Unlike most other bullets, I found that I wasn't getting good results at max safe pressures and velocities; I ended up getting good results at 45.0 grains (Obermayer chamber, 2.84" COAL, Lapua brass), whereas I'd get great results with 46.0-46.5 grains with a 155 SMK.
You'll get very good results with both G1 and G7 data out to 600 yards (and perhaps even 800), especially if you pay attention to the important details (actual muzzle velocity, air temperature and altitude, actual size of scope clicks). At 1000 yards, the G7 will be giving better results than the G1, due to the fact that the G7 drag curve is a much better fit to a typical match bullet than the G1 curve. At ranges well in excess of 1000 yards, the G7 data will be very noticeably better.
You never can be sure when you switch primers, and you really need to test in order to be *SURE*, but to be honest it's a pretty low-risk switch. I would do it, especially since this is only a "preliminary good load" (you have not yet invested in carefully chrono'ing a 15+ shot string, or shooting a 15+ shot group at 1000 yards in ideal conditions, etc). Even more so, you'd be replacing one probably-good-primer (WLR) with another probably-good-primer (BR2). In the little bit of primer testing that I have done, I haven't seen one primer produce better or worse grouping than another, and the most change in velocity I saw (using a Fed GM215M) was a lot less than I expected (25fps IIRC).
I am curious what COAL you are using with your 175 SMKs...? (trying to figure out if the Lapua 155s will end up fitting your chamber well or poorly - it's much easier to work with them with a longer throat).
The Lapua 155s tend to be quite fussy to get shooting reliably well (whereas the Sierra 155, 168 and 175 are a piece of cake). The Lapua 155s are an extremely high quality bullet, so if you do figure out how to get them shooting well in your rifle, you'll have a very competitive load. They'll work just fine in a 1-10" twist, and just fine in a 24" barrel. Use Varget, try ten thou off and ten thou in, and explore the 44.5-46.5 grain charge weight. Unlike most other bullets, I found that I wasn't getting good results at max safe pressures and velocities; I ended up getting good results at 45.0 grains (Obermayer chamber, 2.84" COAL, Lapua brass), whereas I'd get great results with 46.0-46.5 grains with a 155 SMK.
Thanks for the great response. This is all new to me and its great when experienced shooters and reloaders chime in.
Unfortunately, my groups are using 4 shot groups (I know, I know), to minimize amount of bullets used. (Im already basically out after the weekend). I didnt buy enough when I could have and now they are gone and im currently sourcing some. Full 10-15 shot strings will be used in the future forsure when I actually have quantity. I needed to minimize component use during testing so I can actually have enough ammo to shoot the matches
I was using G1 curves, inputing scope height, realtime current conditions, (pressure, altitude, temp, velocity, distance from chrony to muzzle, etc) and was very close to dead on each first shot. But, the corrections, I wrote down so next time I'll be bang on in elevation for a similar day at the same range.
I guess what I'll do with the primers, is load up 10 with, and 10 without the new primers and see which groups better, and chony it. (That is if I find components). My problem is, Im basically limited to weekends to do actual shooting, and only 2 free nights during the week to do the reloading. But, the weekends now, I'll be shooting in practises, so I cant be doing load testing. Doesnt look like for another month I'll be able to do another full day or two of development.
175SMK COAL is 2.805. My best guess is that Im starting to jam after 2.810-2.815ish, with having the odd FGMM showing land marks when cycling through a few (not firing, just smoking and cycling). I've found variences of 2.809-2.816 on FGMM.
I bought the stoney point comparator tool and bore insert set and tried to use it friday, and I obviously am not using it right (even after watching a very detailed and great demonstration in person of how the product works). When doing that, my lengths are like 2.65ish. ? So I have no idea what is going on there, and havent had the time to explore further. Its definitely stressful to be rushing through this stuff and having no time, and shoots coming up less than a week.
So, given all that, I dont know if I can seat the lapua where it needs to be, but only testing will figure it out.
I am very happy so far with the 175smk. It worked great yesterday at 500m, and its an easy accurate load with a decent speed. I will favor shooting in precision for now, with moving targets etc, so until my experience and target knowledge, leading etc gets up there, slight advantages offered from extreme tuning of a fussy bullet might not be the avenue I want to head down. I personally dont think I have enough experience yet, so I dont want to get over my head with too many reloading permutations of what I can do just yet. But, I did already buy 100 lapuas a month ago to experiment with.
I am interested in the whidden pointing die though as another step into my process, and several people yesterday at the match were talking about its benefits and how they liked it.
Thanks again
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
4 shot groups are OK. What you now know, is that you have something that "hasn't shown itself to be bad, yet". Which is necessary, and a very good place to start. As you get to do more testing, you'll get a better understanding of how good it is, over a larger number of shots.
You are discovering the basic truth of shooting, there is never nearly enough time to do even a fraction of the sensible and useful load testing that you'd like too. This is the reality of it, all you can do is to juggle and manage it as best as you can.
You need to figure out the right tradeoff between improving your rifle+ammo combination, and improving you as a shooter. It sounds like what you have at this point is probably pretty good, and almost certainly good enough to win matches a 300-500-600 yards. Especially if you are just learning (I am guessing you are a new shooter with the ORA?), there's enough rush and confusion that you'd probably be better off doing a certain amount of "just learning the whole routine" (specifically, e.g. equipment setup, and plotting your shots), rather than suffering any distraction by trying to make what would be relatively miniscule improvements to your ammo.
Once you are able to figure out how to shoot, and keep score for your partner, and plot your own shots (which is impossible and definitely total overload for the first few times), your detailed fall-of-shot plots from your own matches will start to provide useful information on how well your ammo is performing, which will nicely complement any dedicated testing you might do at 100y or at longer ranges. Your plots from matches, combined with your notes, will start to give you useful information. For example if you shot a match well (in the sense that you broke all of your shots well), then the vertical spread of your group of 10 or 12 shots at (say) 500 yards will be a pretty good proxy of how accurate you and your rifle and ammo are shooting, even if you suck at reading wind and were blown left and right all over the place and got a poor score. If your group on target is 1.1 minutes high by 3.5 minutes wide, that tells you that you and your rifle can shoot a real 1.1 MOA at 500 yards, even if you can't get a good score out of it (that will eventually improve).
If you have an adequate supply of 175 SMKs or can get them, I would suggest that you use them and your existing load for all of your match shooting, from 100y to 1000y. If you can possibly do it, try to avoid having a load development program (especially with a potentially "tricky" bullet like the Lapua 155) get in the way of your shooting.
There's not a big advantage (nor disadvantage) to the Lapua 155 vs. 175 SMK. Both are excellent bullets for 100-1000y shooting, and both are fully capable of winning the match. Be agnostic - use whichever one you can get easiest, or cheapest, or have the best known-good load for, etc. Don't take a bad example from the American National Match Course shooters and figure that you need several different special loads for different yardages or conditions. All you need is one good one.
Sounds like your chamber is relatively short - there's no way this is a Remington factory chamber (lawyers, spit!), this must be a good match chamber, most likely a .308 Obermayer.
FYI, I have used Lapua 155 in my .308 Obermayer chambered target rifles, and I think it is a bit of a mismatch (you need to seat the bullet overly deeply into the case). If you haven't bought the Lapuas I would suggest you don't, if you have you might consider selling them to someone who has a longer chamber (.050"-0.125" longer than yours, ideally), or save them for yourself with a longer chamber. (OK I now read that you bought 100, but I'll leave what I've written)
155 Lapuas typically touch the rifling at about .025"-.035" longer COAL than a Sierra 168 or #2155 Sierra 155. (and probably also Sierra 175, though I haven't confirmed this).
If you do have a reason to want to use 155-class bullets, the #2156 Sierra and the Berger 155.5 Fullbore are better choices for shorter chambers like yours (and mine). Both of these are also "high performance" 155s just like the Lapua 155s.
It sounds like you are experiment-crazy, process-crazy and tool-crazy. On the one hand, I think you should restrain yourself there (at least to the extent of making sure that it doesn't get in the way of you learning to shoot better). On the other hand I would be the pot calling the kettle black, so in good conscience I ought to just shut up right now (!)
If you do want to experiment with the Whidden pointing die, perhaps you can talk an experienced friend who has one into pointing up 100 bullets for you. Not only would you save the cost of the die, at least for now, you'd have them pointed by somebody who has presumably learned how to use it and to get good results with it. If you do decide you like it, go ahead and buy one and possibly spend some time and mistakes learning how to use it. If you decide against it, buy your friend a case of beer with the money you just avoided spending ;-)
You are discovering the basic truth of shooting, there is never nearly enough time to do even a fraction of the sensible and useful load testing that you'd like too. This is the reality of it, all you can do is to juggle and manage it as best as you can.
You need to figure out the right tradeoff between improving your rifle+ammo combination, and improving you as a shooter. It sounds like what you have at this point is probably pretty good, and almost certainly good enough to win matches a 300-500-600 yards. Especially if you are just learning (I am guessing you are a new shooter with the ORA?), there's enough rush and confusion that you'd probably be better off doing a certain amount of "just learning the whole routine" (specifically, e.g. equipment setup, and plotting your shots), rather than suffering any distraction by trying to make what would be relatively miniscule improvements to your ammo.
Once you are able to figure out how to shoot, and keep score for your partner, and plot your own shots (which is impossible and definitely total overload for the first few times), your detailed fall-of-shot plots from your own matches will start to provide useful information on how well your ammo is performing, which will nicely complement any dedicated testing you might do at 100y or at longer ranges. Your plots from matches, combined with your notes, will start to give you useful information. For example if you shot a match well (in the sense that you broke all of your shots well), then the vertical spread of your group of 10 or 12 shots at (say) 500 yards will be a pretty good proxy of how accurate you and your rifle and ammo are shooting, even if you suck at reading wind and were blown left and right all over the place and got a poor score. If your group on target is 1.1 minutes high by 3.5 minutes wide, that tells you that you and your rifle can shoot a real 1.1 MOA at 500 yards, even if you can't get a good score out of it (that will eventually improve).
If you have an adequate supply of 175 SMKs or can get them, I would suggest that you use them and your existing load for all of your match shooting, from 100y to 1000y. If you can possibly do it, try to avoid having a load development program (especially with a potentially "tricky" bullet like the Lapua 155) get in the way of your shooting.
There's not a big advantage (nor disadvantage) to the Lapua 155 vs. 175 SMK. Both are excellent bullets for 100-1000y shooting, and both are fully capable of winning the match. Be agnostic - use whichever one you can get easiest, or cheapest, or have the best known-good load for, etc. Don't take a bad example from the American National Match Course shooters and figure that you need several different special loads for different yardages or conditions. All you need is one good one.
Sounds like your chamber is relatively short - there's no way this is a Remington factory chamber (lawyers, spit!), this must be a good match chamber, most likely a .308 Obermayer.
FYI, I have used Lapua 155 in my .308 Obermayer chambered target rifles, and I think it is a bit of a mismatch (you need to seat the bullet overly deeply into the case). If you haven't bought the Lapuas I would suggest you don't, if you have you might consider selling them to someone who has a longer chamber (.050"-0.125" longer than yours, ideally), or save them for yourself with a longer chamber. (OK I now read that you bought 100, but I'll leave what I've written)
155 Lapuas typically touch the rifling at about .025"-.035" longer COAL than a Sierra 168 or #2155 Sierra 155. (and probably also Sierra 175, though I haven't confirmed this).
If you do have a reason to want to use 155-class bullets, the #2156 Sierra and the Berger 155.5 Fullbore are better choices for shorter chambers like yours (and mine). Both of these are also "high performance" 155s just like the Lapua 155s.
It sounds like you are experiment-crazy, process-crazy and tool-crazy. On the one hand, I think you should restrain yourself there (at least to the extent of making sure that it doesn't get in the way of you learning to shoot better). On the other hand I would be the pot calling the kettle black, so in good conscience I ought to just shut up right now (!)
If you do want to experiment with the Whidden pointing die, perhaps you can talk an experienced friend who has one into pointing up 100 bullets for you. Not only would you save the cost of the die, at least for now, you'd have them pointed by somebody who has presumably learned how to use it and to get good results with it. If you do decide you like it, go ahead and buy one and possibly spend some time and mistakes learning how to use it. If you decide against it, buy your friend a case of beer with the money you just avoided spending ;-)
Thanks yet again for the detailed response.
Im definitely experiment crazy. I love tinkering, and fiddling and there arent enough hours in a day to satisfy me!
RE: Pointing - Great advice you offered there, didnt even cross my mind. Might as well have some of mine pointed to see if id like the difference.
Cheers.
Question,
When using a hornady/stoney point bullet OAL gauge and caliper comparator, I am not sure where I should be stopping with my pressure on the OAL rod.
In the instructions it says 3-4 lbs, about that of a hunting rifle trigger pull. Well, my best guess at that has the bullet seated super far into the case and the COAL is like 2.6
If I give it a bit more pressure (my guess is 8-12lbs), there is a "jump" and then it stops dead in its tracks. Taking this out and measuring the OAL is 2.352ish (cant remember exactly, because im now at work) with a COAL around 2.835?
Just confused as to what I should be feeling with this gauge? Is that "jump" the static friction release on a dirty throat? It says you can seat the bullet into the lands by .025 with pressure, but it wouldnt explain that sticky point.
Thanks for any help who's used the tool.
When using a hornady/stoney point bullet OAL gauge and caliper comparator, I am not sure where I should be stopping with my pressure on the OAL rod.
In the instructions it says 3-4 lbs, about that of a hunting rifle trigger pull. Well, my best guess at that has the bullet seated super far into the case and the COAL is like 2.6
If I give it a bit more pressure (my guess is 8-12lbs), there is a "jump" and then it stops dead in its tracks. Taking this out and measuring the OAL is 2.352ish (cant remember exactly, because im now at work) with a COAL around 2.835?
Just confused as to what I should be feeling with this gauge? Is that "jump" the static friction release on a dirty throat? It says you can seat the bullet into the lands by .025 with pressure, but it wouldnt explain that sticky point.
Thanks for any help who's used the tool.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Perhaps there's something wrong with the case? With the measuring case in your hand, does the bullet move in it pretty freely? It should be lightly held be the neck and not move for no reason, but fairly light finger pressure should move it.
Interesting idea on a dirty throat. Match chambers often have pretty minimal throat clearance (as little as .001" is not uncommon). Try giving the throat a few strokes with a bore brush and then push a patch through, see if this helps?
Take a brand new unprimed case, or a full length sized case. Take the bolt out of the rifle and point it down. The case should drop into the chamber, and freely (under its own weight) fall in until it's is fully seated - does it? Then, seat a bullet to just a bit under 2.800" (anywhere around 2.775" would be fine). This dummy cartridge also ought to freely drop in under its own weight (this might tell you if the bullet is hanging up in the throat.
Whether you use the Stoney point gauge or just simply push a bullet into the throat with a cleaning rod, there should be essentially zero resistance to pushing it in, until the bullet touches the rifling, at which point you should feel a firm and sudden stop. After that, the bullet should quite strongly resist being pushed in farther (e.g. very very firm finger pressure won't produce any movement that you see or feel, although it will make the bullet lightly stuck in the rifling - just tap it out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle)
Interesting idea on a dirty throat. Match chambers often have pretty minimal throat clearance (as little as .001" is not uncommon). Try giving the throat a few strokes with a bore brush and then push a patch through, see if this helps?
Take a brand new unprimed case, or a full length sized case. Take the bolt out of the rifle and point it down. The case should drop into the chamber, and freely (under its own weight) fall in until it's is fully seated - does it? Then, seat a bullet to just a bit under 2.800" (anywhere around 2.775" would be fine). This dummy cartridge also ought to freely drop in under its own weight (this might tell you if the bullet is hanging up in the throat.
Whether you use the Stoney point gauge or just simply push a bullet into the throat with a cleaning rod, there should be essentially zero resistance to pushing it in, until the bullet touches the rifling, at which point you should feel a firm and sudden stop. After that, the bullet should quite strongly resist being pushed in farther (e.g. very very firm finger pressure won't produce any movement that you see or feel, although it will make the bullet lightly stuck in the rifling - just tap it out with a cleaning rod from the muzzle)
Yes, the bullet moves freely in the modified case, hardly staying in position.
Ill give the other methods a shot. Im finding it weird forsure. At first, as soon as it touched sometihng, it stopped, so I thought that was the distance, smoke test showed drastic difference, so I pushed harder and it jumped forward and now theres no moving it more.
Thanks for the ideas.
TR11 Mine came in a little while back.. BAS-K different style stock...I may have missed the scope size what night force did you put on it ?
Same here left eye dominant...have stock saddle on order. Article in I think shooting times about the rifle . They fired 500 308's on a weekend no malfunctions ..Ripped through 10 shot mags to see how it heated up.
I got extra mags from Alberta Tactical Rifle. Will try to reverse cheek rest.
Interested in some 300 meter stuff let me know ..EESA has the set up.
Same here left eye dominant...have stock saddle on order. Article in I think shooting times about the rifle . They fired 500 308's on a weekend no malfunctions ..Ripped through 10 shot mags to see how it heated up.
I got extra mags from Alberta Tactical Rifle. Will try to reverse cheek rest.
Interested in some 300 meter stuff let me know ..EESA has the set up.
