Savage BP Rifle Failure

doc-garand said:
It happend here in Quebec this year at the ''Ruisseau Noir'' Range
A savage again:eek:
A finger or two are still to be found
The victim is a very experienced shooter with years of experience in black powder.
I think a lawsuit is in the way:rolleyes:
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....but the pic is right from http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html, and the inscription says: "The blown rifle in the above photo is what was left of a .50 caliber Savage Model 10ML II after a catastrophic failure of the rifle back in March of 2004. Fortunately, no one was injured. I know that for a fact - since I was the operator. " The anonymous author is "from Canada" so that part fits.

No-one finds it "interesting" that all trails lead back to Toby Bridges? If not, I have to conclude that the days of critical independent thought are behind us. Now it's: "I saw it on the Interweb therefore it's true".
 
If you look at the picture you can see a lot of copper wash on the barrel. From what I read on the "doug" site this is an indication that something very fishy occured as a properly seated bullet would not leave copper wash on the barrel even if the gun blew. My Savage has been around for a while and the ony issue was IMR 4227 not igniting properly and as for the gun all parts are as pristine as the day they were bought.

And for the picture from the fellow from Qb :owned:
 
I noticed that the post of the failed firearm as "proof" from Doc-garand was from the "Toby Bridges" site and while it is indeed proof of failure it is not proof of the failure from the Quebec range.

It serves little purpose to cross post parts of different incidents without posting the details of the incidents. The "Doug" site is heavily pro-Savage which is fine, however there seems to be postings that are so strongly pro-Savage that they completely dismiss any possibility of cause of failure to be other than operator error or wilful sabotage.

In my view this should not be a debate, I don't KNOW the reasons for this failure and I don't think anyone else, at this point, does either (including the shooter involved in my original post, he is probably second guessing himself as well as the rifle and I imagine losing a lot of sleep over it).

So... if I could... I respectfully request that people not jump to conclusions, just share information as it is available so that we can ALL make our own decisions and ALL keep our own conclusions private.

I am not a moderator but I am hoping they will agree that links to other sites as reference to information are a more accurate way of sharing than cross posting less than entire snippits.

Cheers to all and may you all stay safe with whatever your personal decisions are... Bob
 
I owned a bulged barrel Savage for about an hour. It had just came in to a local shop on a trade and hadn't been checked over. The wrench was missing so I had to take it home to tear it apart, check it over and return it. There was one heck of a ring exactly at the rear sight, which was installed backwards. Externally it looked like a stepped barrel. One could speculate why the bulge was there, but I'd rather speculate on what kind of shooter would blow up his gun and trade it off.:(
 
BimmerBob said:
I noticed that the post of the failed firearm as "proof" from Doc-garand was from the "Toby Bridges" site and while it is indeed proof of failure it is not proof of the failure from the Quebec range.

It serves little purpose to cross post parts of different incidents without posting the details of the incidents. The "Doug" site is heavily pro-Savage which is fine, however there seems to be postings that are so strongly pro-Savage that they completely dismiss any possibility of cause of failure to be other than operator error or wilful sabotage.

In my view this should not be a debate, I don't KNOW the reasons for this failure and I don't think anyone else, at this point, does either (including the shooter involved in my original post, he is probably second guessing himself as well as the rifle and I imagine losing a lot of sleep over it).

So... if I could... I respectfully request that people not jump to conclusions, just share information as it is available so that we can ALL make our own decisions and ALL keep our own conclusions private.

I am not a moderator but I am hoping they will agree that links to other sites as reference to information are a more accurate way of sharing than cross posting less than entire snippits.

Cheers to all and may you all stay safe with whatever your personal decisions are... Bob
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better Bob, I for one really appreciate your sharing this with us.

Cheers nessy.
 
My Savage has been around for a while and the ony issue was IMR 4227 not igniting properly and as for the gun all parts are as pristine as the day they were bought
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I'd suspect something along of a steep charge of 4227 that didn't ignite on the first try. Someone pops in a second primer, not knowing primer #1 unseated the bullet and upon firing the second primer, bulges/splits the barrel. I had trouble back in the day with 4227as well, but 42 gr of 4759 solved that issue.
 
well i know the story on the one in the original post because my boss met shooter face to face about a month back. according to him he was using a Precision Rifle sub base, whic savage says do not use, in the event of a over charge or preassure spike the mmp sabot is designed to fail and allow gas to vent around the bullet and out the barrel. the sub base is supposed to give you better accuracy, but if there's a problem then it turns it into a pipe bomb. he was a little mbarressed by all this and at the time made no mention of going after savage. even if he tried savage would shoot him down for using the dub base as i understand it. lucky guy, lost the tip of his thumb and rquired a skin graft or two
 
I have used one for several years now and have NEVER had a problem !!
MANY VARIABLES involved here.
Hopefully, the truth will come out eventually.It's too great a concept ( smokeless powder )to be condemed...
 
A friend of mine in Saskatchewan had a Savage 10ML II blow up on him about 2 years ago, I hunted with him for many years using Hawken style black powder guns and he is not one to overload any rifle, muzzleloaders or center fires. He uses pill bottles for his speedloaders with the bullet above the powder on a piece of plastic held in place by the lid so a double charge of bullets or powder would be very obvious. He said he had a lot of rounds through the rifle and that he went by the loads recommended in the Savage manual. Savage tried to blame it on him for the failure but in the end they replaced the muzzleloader under the condition that he promised to keep the pictures off the internet. You can call BS on this if you want but I have known this guy for over 20 years and he is not one to tell tall tales or lies.
 
Silverback said:
A friend of mine in Saskatchewan had a Savage 10ML II blow up on him about 2 years ago, I hunted with him for many years using Hawken style black powder guns and he is not one to overload any rifle, muzzleloaders or center fires. He uses pill bottles for his speedloaders with the bullet above the powder on a piece of plastic held in place by the lid so a double charge of bullets or powder would be very obvious. He said he had a lot of rounds through the rifle and that he went by the loads recommended in the Savage manual. Savage tried to blame it on him for the failure but in the end they replaced the muzzleloader under the condition that he promised to keep the pictures off the internet. You can call BS on this if you want but I have known this guy for over 20 years and he is not one to tell tall tales or lies.
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Not calling bull#### but accidents happen. The world is an imperfect place. I'm actually getting pretty interested in this platfrom.


Gun Digest 2004 gives it a pretty nice write up.
 
There is a strange similarity between the "facts" presented to prove that the Savage ML is dangerous, and the facts used to prove the existence of UFO's.

The best we ever get is:

- a second-hand account;
- a claim that "and he ain't crazy!";
- often a conspiracy theory - "and the government (or Savage) paid him to be quiet" which explains why he can't be named and no more info can be provided; and
- of course some pictures.

Never a real analysis by someone who will allow their name to be used. I'm not calling anyone a liar (I truly don't see why anyone would deliberately invent facts), but many people are loose and fast with details, and as already shown in this thread, stories from a single source (such as the mother of all pictures) morph pretty quickly.

As soon as I hear a first-hand account from someone who has some credibility, who can provide a solid explanation of what happened before and after, and can point to the probable cause according to the evidence, I'll listen.

The rest of you guys should sell your Savages real fast on the EE, but of course no-one passing on and building up the stories on how dangerous they are, own, or have probabaly even handled one.
 
This is why stupid people shouldent be allowed to own a firearm. especially one capeable of shooting both blackpowder and smokeless. as the idiot likely bought a blackpowder measureing device and tossed in 120 grains of smokeless.

i think forest gumps saying Stupid is as Stupid does works really well for things like that. i can honestly say that most people i have seen buy one of those ML's i have felt a little worried selling it to them.
 
Well, it's becoming more and more apparent that the Savage ML-II is a terrible and unsafe gun. Those of you who own them should, without delay, ship them to me at my expense before anyone gets hurt. =)
 
Andy said:
There is a strange similarity between the "facts" presented to prove that the Savage ML is dangerous, and the facts used to prove the existence of UFO's.

The best we ever get is:

- a second-hand account;
- a claim that "and he ain't crazy!";
- often a conspiracy theory - "and the government (or Savage) paid him to be quiet" which explains why he can't be named and no more info can be provided; and
- of course some pictures.

Never a real analysis by someone who will allow their name to be used. I'm not calling anyone a liar (I truly don't see why anyone would deliberately invent facts), but many people are loose and fast with details, and as already shown in this thread, stories from a single source (such as the mother of all pictures) morph pretty quickly.

As soon as I hear a first-hand account from someone who has some credibility, who can provide a solid explanation of what happened before and after, and can point to the probable cause according to the evidence, I'll listen.

The rest of you guys should sell your Savages real fast on the EE, but of course no-one passing on and building up the stories on how dangerous they are, own, or have probabaly even handled one.
Click to expand...

Hi Andy,


I just could go my way without writing some personal facts...

I am 63 years old... ( not or not enough stupid... ) LOL

I am the first owner of my 50 cal 10MLII...

I use to shoot this gun since more than five (5) years...

I love this ML gun... and still love her...

I have more than 2,000 rounds through that gun (at least). ( hard to believe... )

I shot all the recipes that you can imagine... name it...

- 209 primers of all kinds: CCI, Winchester, ... name it...

- Bullets: Hornady, Precision, Parker, ... name it...

- powders: 4227 ( at the beginning), IMR-4198, Hodgdon 4198, H-322, Accurate 5744, Vitavouri 110, 120, 133, XMR-2015, 10X, SR-4759, ... at all their possible loads.. name it...

- powders: in duplex mode ( the best recipes ) ... name it ...

- Sabots: Hornady, MMP. Precision,... name it...


This Savage gun can take more pressure than you can think of...

Just to say that I am ( I hope ) a great black powder shooter: I shoot long range distance ( > 600 yards ) with a muzzleloader Gibbs Pedersoli...
So... as many of us, some day, I ...

Sometimes I shot with ( God, forgive me...) rounds with 2 x powder ....
More than twice ( God, please still forgive me... ) I shot with 2 bullets...
This Savage barrel was still with me.... ( and I was still with her... )

BUT ONE DAY .... that was the B A N G day...

I was at the range and was zeroing my scope for the deer hunt. With 250SST Hornady bullet in a MMP short black sabot over SR-4759 powder.... a quite not original load .... but OK for the hunt ....

Than came the B A N G ..... . . . . .

A very loud BANG.... everybody at the shooting line looked at me..... and I looked asstonished at the 10ML-LL ...

Guess what ... n o t h i n g !!

Everything was looking fine .... even the barrel ... even myself ....

I was very skeptical ... as a science man ... I was just thinking of my last way of loading ... etc ... name it ...

SO, I put some powder in that ML, pushed a Hornady 250SST-MMP Black Sabot with the ramrod...

That was as usual ... but in the last 6 inches down the barrel ...
r e s is t a n c e went to almost ZERO ! ! ! !!

I had the impression that the ramrod was pushing in zero resistance ....

Guess what ...

That is the END of the story ...

No more BANG, No blood, no... name it... I decided not to shoot anymore with that barrel...

Afterwards, my gunsmith told me ( as I expected ) that the barrel bulged in the rear 6 inches... but with no exterior signs.

I then changed the barrel for a new one.....


Autopsy:

IMO the 10ML-II barrel can take great pressure.

IMO the 10ML-II barrel can shoot double charge of powder.

IMO the 10ML-II barrel can shoot double bullets.

IMO the 10ML-II barrel can shoot double charge of powder AND double bullets.

IMO... as I remember today... I got a misfire and I forgot ( please do not ask me why...) to place the bullet back on the powder with the ramrod...

IMO the 10ML-II barrel cannot tolerate air space between the powder and the bullet... ( my interpretation ).

I am still shooting smokeless powder in the Savage...

I think that using this muzzleloader is like "reloading".... Look at what you are doeing...


Just my 2 cents.

Gérald

P.S.: the same principle applies with BP ML.
P.S.: a bit shy to write this post... but human is human and i must look at every shot as a reloading shot... and please do not disturb me at that magic time...
 
Andy said:
There is a strange similarity between the "facts" presented to prove that the Savage ML is dangerous, and the facts used to prove the existence of UFO's.

The best we ever get is:

- a second-hand account;
- a claim that "and he ain't crazy!";
- often a conspiracy theory - "and the government (or Savage) paid him to be quiet" which explains why he can't be named and no more info can be provided; and
- of course some pictures.

Never a real analysis by someone who will allow their name to be used. I'm not calling anyone a liar (I truly don't see why anyone would deliberately invent facts), but many people are loose and fast with details, and as already shown in this thread, stories from a single source (such as the mother of all pictures) morph pretty quickly.

As soon as I hear a first-hand account from someone who has some credibility, who can provide a solid explanation of what happened before and after, and can point to the probable cause according to the evidence, I'll listen.

The rest of you guys should sell your Savages real fast on the EE, but of course no-one passing on and building up the stories on how dangerous they are, own, or have probabaly even handled one.
Click to expand...


You are right, these accounts are all made up, there is absolutely no reason why a rifle company would like to keep first hand accounts and pictures of their blown up guns off the internet, it's all part of an anti-Savage conspiracy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the Savage 10ML II's. :rolleyes:
 
OK, just saw this from a post in another thread on this same issue and noticed that it is the very same failure that precipitated my original post. This one contains a statement from the shooter and what the load particulars were which is additional information related to this failure incident which I think is important to share here. This disuputes an earlier post that the shooter was loading outside the recommended procedures, no mention of something between the sabot and powder here so all I can guess is that the other "second hand" information was a misrepresentation of the facts.

Here is the link: http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html

Be careful out there folks, please.

Take care, Bob
 
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