SCAR program canceled

You know polymer melts, right?

I do know that the US gov is investing heavily in such a program now.

Brass melts too, so what, its called engineering. G11 was a fantastic platform in terms of what it brought to the table, unification and the cheep G36 is what killed it not functionality issues.
 
I am waiting for the next big leap in small arms. I think it will be a long wait though.
Cool burning propellants that don't erode barrels? or over heat rifles?
Telescoping ammo to reduce bolt travel and magazine size?
Separate loading ammo with a liquid propellant like the crusader?

Right now we are trying to improve functionality, ergonomics, reliability and reduce weight. Everyone is tuning the same thing right now and selling it as new. When will we make the jump from muzzle loader to a lee enfield.
 
Caseless ammo has already been developped and tested long ago, it didn't go very far, problems with extreme overheating is one of the reasons it failed. I can't imagine polymer cased neither. lol

You've never heard of black powder or shotgun shells, I guess. :p

Its true that caseless ammunition has never really caught on as an infantry weapon, though R&D continues and in fairness to the effort, the reasons probably have more with budgetary realities and the logistics chain than with the technology.

The H&K G11 was a pretty neat concept, though, just the same, with a 4.73mm caliber 49.2 grain projectile encased in a 80 grain block of Nitramine based propellant.

The Russians have also developed a VOG-25P caseless projectile for a 40mm grenade launcher.
 
THe G11 is a committee project - if we see how we fight now, G11 is like a mid-life project that was completely elapsed in 10 years if it was fielded in 1990. It was based on the premises that effectiveless will be increased by increasing hittability by reducing recoil, flattening the trajectory and spitting out more bullets. It made some sense back then if we are still sitting there waiting for the BMPs to come en mass.

This concept is proven incorrect by the ACR - all the fancy duplex ammo and flechette sabot rounds provided no dramatic improvement over the base weapon M16A2 shooting M855.

Can you imagine the amount of complain if we end up shooting a 17gr flechette these days, when people are not even happy with a 5.56? Can you image shooting a HK 4.6mm PDW round as you main weapon, that only travels faster? Can you imagine having duplex ammo as general issue while we are talking about surgical shooting that you are supposed to be accountable for every bullet even if you are a one hook rifleman? Thank god we did not do it, because we would have wasted a tonne of money by now and switching to something else by jumping one procurement cycle faster

People cannot hit anything because they cannot see anything and figure out the distance (or simply they suck as shooting) - putting smaller and more rounds in the direction is not going to help.
 
Improving hit probability was much more the focus of the ACR program than lethality. In either case, if the BMPs and T-80s had come pouring through the Fulda Gap, you can bet that small arms - hit probability, lethality, or otherwise - would have been near the bottom of a very long list of concerns. Nobody was terribly concerned (relatively speaking) about small arms during Desert Storm either. Its the nature of the conflicts since then that have brought the small arms issues to the forefront. Call it hindsight, call it 'next-war-itis', whatever, we tend to think only about tomorrow in the sense of what we feel is important today.
 
Well seeing as this thread is way OT, lets just keep on going...

G11 is no more an end state then the G36 or M16FOW. Type of bullet, caliber etc are all secondary issues to the real one. The question that is being asked is: Can the rifleman and the capabilities of his military be made more effective overall by changing something about the shooters rifle?

The main reason for looking at a caseless or polymer cased round is that it reduces weight. So if we assume that 5.56 is the pinnacle bullet for military use then reducing the weight of round that pushes the 5.56 could be a big leap forward. LSAT boasts a reduction of about 40% in weight with the polymer cased round, which is IMHO a significant enough advancement to justify making a change. We could be looking at practical 50rd mags, reducing the weight a soldier carries in ammo in favor of armor weight, significantly reduced logistical costs associated with the weight per round etc etc...

Other benefits of the polymer cased ammo appear to be temperature related. In other words the polymer acts as an insulator reducing cook-offs in in MGs, and reduces the effect of ambient temperature on the ammunition.

These are real tangible benefits that go beyond just the rifleman, they could increase the effectiveness of everyone supporting him.

Look 90% of people on the internet (90% of those being heterosexual males BTW) Look at a rifle and judge it based on either its looks or the accessories they can put on it. The military should and generally does look for functionality first. G11 isn't significant because of either of these factors or the ammo is is capable of pushing, its significant because of the technology it represents and the possible benefits of that technology.

So the future I see is rifles that offer the basic features of an M16 but with less weight and less maintenance. It will happen. Closed minded people may not like it, but it will happen. Please don't pound the M4 drum and chant, "nothing can be better". And dear Lord please leave the G36/XM8 drum at home.

THe G11 is a committee project - if we see how we fight now, G11 is like a mid-life project that was completely elapsed in 10 years if it was fielded in 1990. It was based on the premises that effectiveless will be increased by increasing hittability by reducing recoil, flattening the trajectory and spitting out more bullets. It made some sense back then if we are still sitting there waiting for the BMPs to come en mass.

This concept is proven incorrect by the ACR - all the fancy duplex ammo and flechette sabot rounds provided no dramatic improvement over the base weapon M16A2 shooting M855.

Can you imagine the amount of complain if we end up shooting a 17gr flechette these days, when people are not even happy with a 5.56? Can you image shooting a HK 4.6mm PDW round as you main weapon, that only travels faster? Can you imagine having duplex ammo as general issue while we are talking about surgical shooting that you are supposed to be accountable for every bullet even if you are a one hook rifleman? Thank god we did not do it, because we would have wasted a tonne of money by now and switching to something else by jumping one procurement cycle faster

People cannot hit anything because they cannot see anything and figure out the distance (or simply they suck as shooting) - putting smaller and more rounds in the direction is not going to help.
 
For those who disbeleive in Casetelescoping Polymer ammo -- LSAT ;)

Caseless ammo works, but still leaves a lot of heat in the chamber, and while its fieldable currently, its not aty a point where LSAT and the CT rounds are.

Brett can says what ever he wants.

He actually has it backwards

SOCOM is taking 85% of the monies, and giving the individuals 15% of the moneis they used to get.
SOCOM has all the user deficience reports on the SCAR deployments, the only reason some units are taking the H into combat is they are sitting on the shelf, and have a 7.62mm capability that is non existant. Only certain SOF elements got to go out and run their own "Battle Rifle" programs, and only one has a recently a new program of record, and a new test will all the contending systems, the other element is still trying to get its chosen system running.
If I had to bet the system than won the recent competition will end up being the one and true 16" 7.62mm system...

;)
 
Lot of people at Picatinny Arsenal who need to justify their salaries is how I usually end up looking at these things. And the one thing they've gotten their name on lately that actually is good is the "Picatinny" rail. Which was actually invented by #### Swan at ARMS and Picatinny has nothing to do with it.
 
Personally I am waiting for a plasma rifle in the 40 kilowatt range.

And when I ask they always tell me "Just whats on the shelf mac".

To which I respond "I'll be back".;)
 
Press release from FN Herstal:

FN 5.56 SCAR Retained in USSOCOM's Inventory
(Source: FN Herstal; issued July 7, 2010)

"Belgium-based firearms manufacturer FN Herstal hereby refutes the allegations recently found on the web that USSOCOM abandoned the 5.56 version of the SCAR rifle and reconfirms USSOCOM's decision to acquire the full FN SCAR family of weapons, including the 5.56mm rifle.

The FN SCAR family of weapons consists of the 5.56mm SCAR rifle, 7.62mm SCAR rifle and 40mm LV Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (respectively designated as MK 16, MK 17 and MK 13 by USSOCOM). These three components were developed by FN Herstal in close cooperation with USSOCOM and have each met all the operational and fielding tests required by the program.

This resulted in the notification by USSOCOM last May that the full SCAR system entered into Milestone C phase, allowing production and deployment of the full range of SCAR weapons. The 5.56 version will be part of USSOCOM's inventory.

The choice between the 5.56 and the 7.62 caliber will be left to the discretion of each constitutive component of USSOCOM's Joint Command (e.g. Seals, Rangers, Army Special Forces, USMC, AFSOC) depending on their specific missions on today's battlefield."

[CV32: In other words, the 5.56mm SCAR will remain a choice in inventory, but no one will be choosing it. Just my own personal interpretation, of course.]
 
The wording is not 100%

USSOCOM consists of
JSOC units

USASOC (Army Special Operations -- Group SF, Ranger Bn's, 160th SOAR, and army JSOC elements)
AFSOC (AirForce Special Operations)
MARSOC (Marine Special Operations)
NAVSOF (Navy Special Operations)

Now USASOC is the largest of these and has the most trigger pullers.

USASOC elements already have a 16" 7.62mm system and the rest of USASOC is trying to jump that train.

NAVSOF elements already have a program that will maybe someday end up with a 16" 7.62mm system, and so the rest of the SEAL's are taking the Mk17 as they do not have that system.

MARSOC - got given 40 Mk17's that USASOC did not want and are going to be testing them operationally.
 
.

Biggest problem with the G36/XM8, is the charging handle location. If you bring the rail down lower, the handle is harder to get at. Make the handle easier to get to and optic offset is higher. One of the really nice things about the AR's low picatinny rail height is that you can use folding BUIS effectively, do this with the G36 and you have a stupid vertical offset for optics.

If I had the option I guess I'd make a fixed charging handle on the G36 with as low a rail as possible. The downside is the handle would recip... you'd probably be hitting the optic/mount all the time when charging... the G36 is just a dated design, really great in the 90s but once all the accessory advancements of the last decade are weighed against the rifle its poop starts to show.

I agree...the stock rail is goofy but the KAC rail has always been available in the past. Now there are knockoffs that are close copy available..including the front sight

With this setup, the charging lever is very easy to get at...especially prone behind the rifle...unlike an AR

SL8SB3.jpg

SL8-14.jpg
 
That's the KAC set up I have on my G36, works much better than the stock rails. As has been said, the charging handle is very easy to get at and much less ackward than the M16 / AR system.

If the G36 system is "dated" the what the hell is the 1960's AR system?

Rich
 
The AR system is just 50 years ahead of everyone - everyone only starts catching up now.

The G36 is outdated becasue back in 1990 the German army was not so cutting edge. When it comes to landwarfare and night fighting, the americans is a decade ahead. Weapons are driven by tactics - outdated tactics create outdated weapons.

The US is blessed by Eugene Stoner's vision of creating a compact weapon with linear internal motion - the gas system allows the receiver to have simple geometry without rail - which can be machined from light weight aluminum alloy. If you look at all the major European arms, such as FNC, FAMAS, AUG....they are designed to be not so flexible and stuck with proprietary system so the local arms manufacturer can rape the government later for upgrade. As a result, as money dries out and new capability needed(which local boys like Hensoldt cannot provide....), they start adopting ad havoc solutions. I still cannot figure how some of these German soldiers shoot with an Eotech sitting on the G36 rail.

The AR is simply ahead because it creates a basic compact platform - a lean backbone so things can be added later on. The german, swiss and austria want to create their cutting edge "perfect rifle" for the time they were at without the vision to look ahead of how warfare/tactics will evolve. Eugene stoner doesn't have the crystal ball either, but at least he left space for others to work on the AR later on,.
 
The AR system is just 50 years ahead of everyone - everyone only starts catching up now.

The G36 is outdated becasue back in 1990 the German army was not so cutting edge. When it comes to landwarfare and night fighting, the americans is a decade ahead. Weapons are driven by tactics - outdated tactics create outdated weapons.

The US is blessed by Eugene Stoner's vision of creating a compact weapon with linear internal motion - the gas system allows the receiver to have simple geometry without rail - which can be machined from light weight aluminum alloy. If you look at all the major European arms, such as FNC, FAMAS, AUG....they are designed to be not so flexible and stuck with proprietary system so the local arms manufacturer can rape the government later for upgrade. As a result, as money dries out and new capability needed(which local boys like Hensoldt cannot provide....), they start adopting ad havoc solutions. I still cannot figure how some of these German soldiers shoot with an Eotech sitting on the G36 rail.

The AR is simply ahead because it creates a basic compact platform - a lean backbone so things can be added later on. The german, swiss and austria want to create their cutting edge "perfect rifle" for the time they were at without the vision to look ahead of how warfare/tactics will evolve. Eugene stoner doesn't have the crystal ball either, but at least he left space for others to work on the AR later on,.


I have to say Greentips although i agree with many things you say,on thisI totally disagree.

Ever herd of the Mp43/44ST44 & St45 that is what set some standards there, that is thinking ahead. The AR has been adapted heavily over the years, it just happened to be conveniently adapted into a weapon that maintains it's longevity!

Rail systems were never apart of the basic AR variants, that came after which made the rifle system last longer! The AR rifle was not made intentionally ambidextrous, but it just worked out that way after! Not knocking Eugene by any means, but their has been many rifles that were made since that which were inherently better than the AR series, but the AR series with better parts and manufacturing have raised it to higher levels that it was never designed to do in it's inception.

I'm a huge believer in the AR type rifle!

But the G36 with the KAC rail system on either full size or the K, & C version is a great selection of rifles to choose from!

What I'm getting at is pretty simple, pick up any rifle from the 80's and compare it too today's versions of the same rifle and there is a world of difference in my mind!(This can depend on the manufacture especially for defunct rifle/ newer is better)

I think the real reason the AR is still the go to rifle is because the US still uses it, and it did set the new standard. With the improvements that have come over the years, and all the accessories that are available from so many small companies and the familiarity of the rifle,very are hard to beat. And really why drop it with new pistol grips, superior machined parts, perfected magazines(Pmags) etc etc the rifle has made it to a 21century Assault rifle! But so has the AUG/G36/HK53/33 FN Fal models with upgrades can do that too, and some have already!

But most importantly to me the 5.56/223 round i think was the most evolutionary element it brought to the table.

Just like the AK series, the AR will be around for a very longtime, simply because it has been adapted too and the US simple left no other option but to upgrade it!.

Bottom line is the AR just happens to be lucky enough to fit the role of the future land warrior by being in the right place or right army to keep it their!
 
That's the KAC set up I have on my G36, works much better than the stock rails. As has been said, the charging handle is very easy to get at and much less ackward than the M16 / AR system.

If the G36 system is "dated" the what the hell is the 1960's AR system?

Rich

AR charging handle is poop from the operation standpoint but then the G36 is poop from the layout standpoint. If the G36 had a reciprocating charging handle that came out the side of the gun and could be swapped side for side it would have been a real contender. Like GT said the limited vision led to a product that has a practical lifespan of its original optic setup. If HK did a redesign of the charging handle location like Mexico and used an integrated picatinny top rail I think great potential could be found in it.

Lets be honest about the AR too though, its taken decades of modification and probably billions spent in acquisitions and R&D to make it what it is today. With what has been spent on the AR platform to get it where it is now I'm sure many platforms could be as adaptive too. I wonder if the actual cost assessment on the M16FOW would justify the result? Lets be real, when the M16 was initially launched it was a bit of a flop, they were actually issued without cleaning kits FFS. This on a rifle where the required maintenance to keep a modern one running properly is on the high end.

I think the SCAR is pretty cool, though I've never fired one. I like the concept and the layout. Maybe a good way to look at it is this: With all that has been spent to make the M16FOW functional today is it sound judgement to dump more money replacing it with a new platform that doesn't offer any substancial improvement? IMHO none of the latest and greatest rifles seem to fit that bill. Maybe a truly ambi bullpup that used polymer cased ammo would be worth it. I think with a double dip recession ongoing and the looming massive government cutbacks due in the next decade we won't be finding out anytime soon.

Stoner's good old AR aint goin nowhere ;).
 
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