Schilling Gewer 88 Carbine - what food does it like?

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RedBeard87

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I've been looking at a Schilling Gewer 88 the site lists it as 8×57 J/S... So does that mean it'll take the M48 Mauser rounds I use? SELLIER & BELLOT AMMUNITION
8x57MM, 196GR, FMJ.

I know it gets into a discussion if the rifling has been re-barreled with the wider grooves for some marked with a "J" and "S" for the throat.....

The rifle is posted on a local dealer Al Simmons Gun Shop. I'm not trying to doubt them.... I just don't want anything to do with the Patrone88 bottleneck bullets. Last thing I want to do is use a spitzer round and turn the gun into a shotgun....
 
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Look for these markings;

 2mm diameter dot = Modified barrel contours, post 1891.

Z 3mm high = Deepened rifling groves, post 1896. A large 7mm “Z” may also be stamped on the right side of the butt.

S 3mm high = Rifles suitable altered for S-Munition. 1903-5. An additional 7mm crowned “S” may be found on the right side of the butt.

n 2mm high = Signifies an 88/14 conversion, 1914-15.

If the marks are missing it may still be chambered for the original German 88 cartridge..

It may even be re-chambered for the 7x57mm cartridge as advertised in the reprint of the Alfa Waffenkatalog 1911

https://archive.org/details/AlfaWaffenkatalog1911/page/n325
 
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Got a reply from the dealer:

“Yes the Gew88 is stamped “S” on the chamber for “spitzer patron” so it should be chambered for the JS ammunition which is the modern 8mm Mauser ammo (includes the S&B Ammo you are inquiring about.”
 
Just because it has a ‘S’ marking doesn’t mean it is safe to shoot modern ammo out of it. Always slug the bore no matter what markings are on it. Most will have a .321 dia bore and as such shouldn’t use .323 projectiles (I personally load my 88/05 with .32 Winchester special bullets which are .321 dia). My 88/05 has the ‘S’ marking as well, but the bore isn’t .323. All the ‘S’ marking means is it can chamber the updated ‘S’ round.

These are old rifles made at the beginning of the smokeless powder era when people didn’t really understand the pressures they were dealing with or how best to design a rifle to suit these powders. Many of these rifles blew up in service, for a variety of reasons. Personally I wouldn’t be using modern ammo in one, and most certainly not S&B ammo which I have always found on the heavy side of the loading. Make your own decisions, odds are you likely would be fine, but I personally wouldn’t risk it.
 
The original bore diameter of 7.9mm (0.311”) with a grove depth of 0.1mm (0.003937”). Original grove diameter was 8.1mm or (0.3188976”) or rounded becomes (0.319”)

The original 88 bullet had a weight of 14.7 grams (226.9 grains) and a diameter of 8.1mm (0.319”).

The bullet jacket and rifling combination resulted in 50% of the rifles returned in 1897 needing new barrels.

After testing it was found that increasing the grove depth from 0.10mm (0.003937”) to a grove depth of 0.15mm (0.0059”), for a total grove diameter of 8.2mm (0.3228” or 0.323”) solved the barrel problem.

The new grove depth was adopted in July 7, 1896 by a Prussian “All-Highest Decree” N0. 10 345.

All new and converted rifles with the 0.15mm depth groves were stamped with a “Z”.

“S ammunition” adopted by order of 4/3/1903, No. 251.03. The “S” bullet had
a diameter of 8.22mm (0.3236”). The larger bullet needed the chamber to be modified as the 1888 case was still used.

The rifles with the modified chambered rifles for the “S” cartridge were marked with an “S”.

The War Ministry ordered that only 1888 rifles with new unused barrels be adapted for the “S” cartridge.

The early production 1898 Mausers were also stamped with a 2.5mm “S” on the head of the breech and on the barrel when converted to the “S” cartridge.

The information applies to Gew 1888s and I would assume it applies to the Kar 1888 and the Rifle 1891. ( A Kar 1888 with a stacking hook )

https://www.deviantart.com/stopsigndrawer81/art/German-Model-1888-Comission-Rifle-279746529
 
Schilling Gewer 88 Carbine - what food does it like?

Mousers, it likes Mousers for food. The cat (Meow-ser) likes them too!
 
OP, if you can look up Gunsmithing Simplified by Harold Macfarland, there is a section on milsurp rifles. Most of it has to do with their suitability for converting to sporters as that was the mindset of the time the book was published in 1950

It's a pretty decent book that is a gold mine of information for the people that don't have a lot of tools and like to do things in the old school way, by hand.

He goes on to explain why the older actions of the period, such as the US/Danish Krags and other such rifles as the 1886 Lebel, etc aren't acceptable for higher pressures.

The main reason is that the actions and bolts are made from mild machinery steel that has been case hardened. Back in the day, the only optical pyrometers they had were socalled "trained human eyes."

From personal experience, some of those early actions were OK but others were glass hard all the way through. They only need to be hard for .010 on the surfaces. The interior metal should be softer, which allows a bit of flexibility, which is needed for all sorts of purposes.

The best thing to do is slug your bore, as mentioned several times.

The S isn't the only indication the barrel has been changed out. Usually, but again, not always the rifles with 323 bores will have had charger guides added with rivets to each side of the receiver. The best indicator is if the magwell has been modified with an internal spring clip on the left side to eliminate the use of enblocs.

I don't know if it's still the case or not but almost all commercially loaded North American 8x57 was purposely loaded DOWN to around 35,000 psi just because of these old rifles and their prevalence. The only way to get high pressure 8x57JS was to hand load it or import it from an offshore maker. In Europe, they used to ask you which rounds you were looking for, I bore or IS bore and your were expected to know or you didn't get the cartridges.

If it really is a Schilling GEW 88, there is a very good chance it's been rebarreled and if it has, it will very likely have the riveted on charger guides. If no charger guides, please slug the bore to be safe.

Is that the rifle from SFRC??? The stock looks to have been refinished and there aren't any charger guides. It may have been reblued as well.

This means you need enbloc chargers to load the rifle and have it feed properly from the magazine.

About the only redeeming quality I can see in that rifle is that it's a carbine and it seems to have all original parts. Definitely shooter grade but not IMHO collector grade.
 
To the op. Its an interesting rifle, obviously not original wood, but interesting. I would probably stick to mild loads myself, due primarily to the age and barrel profile on these.
 
bearhunter said:
Is that the rifle from SFRC??? The stock looks to have been refinished and there aren't any charger guides. It may have been reblued as well.

About the only redeeming quality I can see in that rifle is that it's a carbine and it seems to have all original parts. Definitely shooter grade but not IMHO collector grade.
Click to expand...

That rifle also has had the front sight protector wings cut and/or ground off as well. Personally I wouldn't touch that rifle at anywhere near the price asked, but to each their own.
 
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