Schmidt Rubin 30-30 Conversion 1960s?

[otis]

I wonder if any of you can give me some reliable info regarding the Schmidt Rubin 30-30 conversion. I understand that this was done on the 1889 model, back in the 1960s, or thereabouts, to make a sporter that was saleable in the US. How successful was this conversion, and were any later models converted to the 30-30? The 1889 model had rear locking lugs. As the rifle was upgraded, and re engineered in later models, the locking lugs were moved forward. I am looking for any info I can get; such as, how accurate were these guns, and were there problems with this conversion? Were there headspace issues? That sort of thing. I saw it mentioned somewhere that the chamber was sleeved, or maybe that was on one of the later models. You tell me. I may need an old timer to advise me on this one. Thanks for looking.

 

[dnepr]

I have one of these conversions. As to when it was done I can't comment . The conversion looks to be done with a chamber sleeve . Magazine is shortened to 6 rounds ,and a block welded into the back of the mag to fill in the space from 7.5x53.5 to 30-30 . Mine is accurate , more accurate than I can shoot the regular iron sites, so I reworked a lyman peep site for it . Chamber is tight , reloads have to be full length resized to chamber , also will not accept a case with a cast bullet bigger than .309 . Action isn't as smooth as my k31 but decent , barrel was shortened to 20 inches . no problems with this conversion so far . I have been told by Internet naysayers that the chamber sleeve will come out eventually but I have seen no real evidence of this ( ie a picture of one that has failed) . The stock is short on mine . I have a cheap slip on recoil pad on it to lengthen it. That is about all I know about them hope it helps

 

[Dosing]

I can't add to the mechanical discussion, as its been about 20 years since I last touched one, but will add that I remember clearly an old timer telling me then how they had been given away in some areas as bonuses for things like yearly newspaper subscriptions.

 

[MD]

Globe Firearms, (Globco) in Vanier Quebec did those.

I was given one, but the stock, sights and trigger guard were so butchered and bubbaed (stock thinned down with a rasp no less) plus it was missing a magazine, that I gave the barreled action (lovely bore on that one) to a 'smith friend for projects and traded the bolt to a fellow who needed one for a box of 30-06 cartridges.

 

[ciphery]

Ha! I wouldn't touch ANY gun with the Globco name on it. The company went out of buisness after multiple lawsuits were levied against them for guns that blew up in their owners faces. They have a reputation that I simply do not trust.

 

[ciphery]

I have one of these conversions. As to when it was done I can't comment . The conversion looks to be done with a chamber sleeve . Magazine is shortened to 6 rounds ,and a block welded into the back of the mag to fill in the space from 7.5x53.5 to 30-30 . Mine is accurate , more accurate than I can shoot the regular iron sites, so I reworked a lyman peep site for it . Chamber is tight , reloads have to be full length resized to chamber , also will not accept a case with a cast bullet bigger than .309 . Action isn't as smooth as my k31 but decent , barrel was shortened to 20 inches . no problems with this conversion so far . I have been told by Internet naysayers that the chamber sleeve will come out eventually but I have seen no real evidence of this ( ie a picture of one that has failed) . The stock is short on mine . I have a cheap slip on recoil pad on it to lengthen it. That is about all I know about them hope it helps

Back in the 1960's people were not taking cell phone pics and posting them on the internet of their blown up guns. You should inquire as to what happened to Globco and why they are no longer in buisness.

 

[otis]

Interesting stuff. How common are these guns, and were any of them converted by the Swiss?

 

[ciphery]

Schmidt-Rubin 7.5x55 Swiss
Bullet Dia: .299"(1889, 90/03 models) 1911 model .308"
Neck Dia: .326" (1889, 90/30 models) 1911 model .334"
Shoulder Dia: .452"
Base Dia: .494"
Rim Dia: .496"
Rim thickness: .058"
Case length: 2.180"
OAL: 3.050"

30-30 winchester/ 30WCF

Bullet Dia: .308"
Neck Dia. .328"
Shoulder Dia: .402"
Base Dia: .4215"- .422"
Rim Dia: .502"
Rim thickness: .058"
Case length: 2.03"- 2.039"
Cartridge length: 2.530"

So either they have an over sized chamber that has some of the original 7.5 chamber in it (might be why the neck is so tight ond won't take a .309"+ bullet also requires full length resize), it has a soldered in chamber sleeve or they have shortened the barrel from the chamber end and cut a new chamber entirely.
Hopefully not into a .299" barrel....which would also explain why .309+ bullets dot fit
Problem with globco was that you could have any of the above with questionable unscrupulous gunsmithing.

 

[ciphery]

Interesting stuff. How common are these guns, and were any of them converted by the Swiss?

NO. The work was preformed by globco....who converted (Bubba'd) many milsurp guns including rechambering Mosin Nagants to 30-06 or 303British which was another dangerous conversion as they left the shoulder of the original 7.62x54r part way back on the body of the 30-06 or 303 chamber....can you say insipient case seporation?

Globco started aquiring milsurp guns by the boat load in the mid 1950's they sporterized just about anything, Schmidt Rubins, Mosin Nagants, Mausers, Lee Enfields, SVTs you name it. Most were converted to either 30-30Win or 303British, some 30-06Sprigfield

 

[otis]

Hey cipher. It sounds like you know a lot about these. I'll tell you what started this enquiry. I was looking for a not too expensive bolt action in 30-30 for my little project. I want to shoot cast bullets in 30 caliber and the 30-30 is ideally suited with it's moderate case capacity and long case neck. The selection of bolt rifles in this caliber is very limited. I don't want a lever gun and only be able to use blunt or flat nose bullets. A friend remembered the Schmidt Rubin conversion and suggested I look into this particular gun. So far it's not looking so good.

 

[mbogo3]

The Bannerman 91/30 conversions to 30-06 were perfectly safe ..........others not so good............Harold

 

[Eaglelord17]

There was also some M96 based action Schmidt Rubins (forward locking lugs) which were converted to 7.62 Nato as well. I am not sure who did those conversions just that I know they exist. I have never heard of the 1889s in .30-30 blowing up on someone. Some older people I have met have sworn by how accurate they are though. Personally as far as a conversion goes, it was probably one of the smarter conversions as pressure wise they are similar rounds, and since you could chamber 7.5x55 GP11 in one (though it is not entirely safe to shoot that way) someone could easily make a mistake(especially in the days before the internet when the knowledge you got was from the gun store, which depending on the person giving the info could be way off).

 

[dnepr]

Hey cipher. It sounds like you know a lot about these. I'll tell you what started this enquiry. I was looking for a not too expensive bolt action in 30-30 for my little project. I want to shoot cast bullets in 30 caliber and the 30-30 is ideally suited with it's moderate case capacity and long case neck. The selection of bolt rifles in this caliber is very limited. I don't want a lever gun and only be able to use blunt or flat nose bullets. A friend remembered the Schmidt Rubin conversion and suggested I look into this particular gun. So far it's not looking so good.

The 3 groove barrel is a pain to slug and measure . But what little bit I have shot cast out of this rifle has been encouraging

 

[ciphery]

Hey cipher. It sounds like you know a lot about these. I'll tell you what started this enquiry. I was looking for a not too expensive bolt action in 30-30 for my little project. I want to shoot cast bullets in 30 caliber and the 30-30 is ideally suited with it's moderate case capacity and long case neck. The selection of bolt rifles in this caliber is very limited. I don't want a lever gun and only be able to use blunt or flat nose bullets. A friend remembered the Schmidt Rubin conversion and suggested I look into this particular gun. So far it's not looking so good.

Well I know a bit about them from speaking with knowledgeable people and seeing old globeco firearms at gun shows and making inquireys. My extensive library on fire arms and cartridges, combined with being a machinist also helps.

Keep this in mind: re loading specs are published with the lowest common denominator in mind. Meaning the weakest action commonly available in that caliber. The 6.5x55 Swedish mauser cartridge has loads published a great deal below the smaller cased 260rem (a 308 necked to 6.5) loads because of the Kraig Jorgensen. So you may not want a max load for the 30-30 or 30-40 as the schmidt Rubin may not take it.
The original schmidt rubin chambering was for a .299"dia, 213gr paper patched lead bullet at 1970fps using Semi-smokeless powder..basically black powder with out the sulphur but with nitrogen compounds in the charcoal component.
The actions are not strong to begin with.
There are many .30 cal. offerings available in bolt rifles.
30-40 Krag in a Remington Lee rifle, 308 winchester in your choice of rifle...all but the largest 30 cal cast bullets will work in a 308win...a 200gr #311299 with 27gr of 5744@ 2014 fps works well as does 115gr #311359 with 12gr of unique@1831fps and anything in between.

If you have said Schmidt rubin in your possession already then take it to a gun smith for inspection. 30-30 is a fairly low pressure round and if the work was performed correctly by Globco than you MAY be ok. I wouldn't trust a soldered in chamber insert, re-cut chamber inside of an existing chamber that uses any part of the original chamber etc. or an action exibiting cracks or other stressers. A gun smith will be able to determine. Re barreling/rechambering may be an option IF the action is sound and a low pressure cartridge like 30-30 or 30-40Kraig is selected, again a smith can better advise

 

[ciphery]

The 3 groove barrel is a pain to slug and measure . But what little bit I have shot cast out of this rifle has been encouraging

Slug barrel as normal, cut a strip of aluminum from a popcan, measure thickness of aluminum strip with micrometer, wrap strip around slug and deduct double the thickness of aluminum strip from slug measurement.

 

[ciphery]

The scmidt Rubin models are:
Rifle model 1889 chambered in: 7.5x53 Schmidt-Rubin M1890
Length: 51.260" weight: 10lb 11oz barrel: 30.7w" 3 grooves RH twist magazine: 12rds deachable box

Model 1889/96. This was a modification of the 1889 which had a slightly shortened reciever and bolt with the locking lugs moved to the front of the bolt sleve.

Cadet Rifle 1897. A single shot varient of the 1889/96 and shortened to just 43.5"
With a 23.3" barrel with 3 RH grooves

Short rifle model 1889/00 The 1900 model was a hybrid of the 1889/96 and the 1897 cadet rifle with a 6 rnd detachable magazine

Cavelry carbine model 1905 it was a 1900 model with a full wood stock and no bayonet attachment shortened slightly to 42.1"

The model 1911 infantry rifle
This was the first rifle to be chambered in 7.5x55 Schmidt Rubin M1911 to improve on the ballistics of the M1890 and M1890/03 cartridges . In order to accomodate this new higher pressure round the original 1889/96 were redesigned and strengthened. The mag capacity went from 12 to 6, the stock was upgraded to a pistol grip and the barrels went from 3 groove to 4 groove
Length: 50.65" weight: 10lb 2oz Barrel: 30.75" 4 groove RH Mag: 6rnd detachable box

Carbine Model 1911. Using the same modified action as the M1911 but shortened to 43.43" with a 23.3" barrel

Infantry Model 1896/11. This was a weak 1889/96 action matted to a 4 groove barrel, a pistol grip stock and a 6rnd detachable box mag...a sheep in wolfs clothing

Carbine model 1900/11 this was a 1896/00 rechambered to 7.5x55...again with the old weak action but updated

Carbine Model 1905/11 the opportunity was also taken to update surviving cavelry carbines rechambering to the 1911 cartridge

Carbine model 1931 (Kar 31) this carbine or short rifle was the first radical change of the scmidt rubin action. The action being redesinged to opperate in HALF the length and is the best of the scmidt Rubin actions.

Carbine 1931/42 (kar 31/42) a M1931 with a permenently afixed 1.8x telescopic sight

Carbine 1931/43 (kar31/43) same as kar 31/42 but with a 2.8x scope

Sniping rifle model 1955 (s gew 55) was the last of the schmidt rubins. The M55 was based on the Kar31 but with a muzzle break, bipod and telescopic sight mounted above the reciever

 

[Why not?]

ciphery,

I have no love for GlobeCo at all. Heard lots of speculation and camp talk, however have never seen actual documented evidence of their conversions resulting in injury or litigation. Can you be more specific?

Ted

 

[otis]

No, I don't have one as yet. I was wanting to get as much info as possible before deciding, and you have been great. I didn't know a thing about these rifles when I first started this thread, but I'm learning.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The model 1911 infantry rifle
This was the first rifle to be chambered in 7.5x55 Schmidt Rubin M1911 to improve on the ballistics of the M1890 and M1890/03 cartridges . In order to accomodate this new higher pressure round the original 1889/96 were redesigned and strengthened. The mag capacity went from 12 to 6, the stock was upgraded to a pistol grip and the barrels went from 3 groove to 4 groove
Length: 50.65" weight: 10lb 2oz Barrel: 30.75" 4 groove RH Mag: 6rnd detachable box

Carbine Model 1911. Using the same modified action as the M1911 but shortened to 43.43" with a 23.3" barrel

Infantry Model 1896/11. This was a weak 1889/96 action matted to a 4 groove barrel, a pistol grip stock and a 6rnd detachable box mag...a sheep in wolfs clothing

Carbine model 1900/11 this was a 1896/00 rechambered to 7.5x55...again with the old weak action but updated

Carbine Model 1905/11 the opportunity was also taken to update surviving cavelry carbines rechambering to the 1911 cartridge

Just a quick point, the 1889/96 action is the same as the 1911 action. The only difference being that the 1911 Rifle and Carbine were built in the new cartilage (GP11) from the beginning. It is also why the older 1889/96 based action could be converted to 1911 standard so easily, as they are essentially the same (except for the way they were configured).

The only real weak Schmidt Rubin action was the 1889 and even then in WWII they approved it to use GP11 in case of emergency (note to all don't try shooting your GP11 through your 1889, it could potentially blow up in your face, wanting to shoot it doesn't count as a emergency).

 

[ciphery]

Just a quick point, the 1889/96 action is the same as the 1911 action. The only difference being that the 1911 Rifle and Carbine were built in the new cartilage (GP11) from the beginning. It is also why the older 1889/96 based action could be converted to 1911 standard so easily, as they are essentially the same (except for the way they were configured).

The only real weak Schmidt Rubin action was the 1889 and even then in WWII they approved it to use GP11 in case of emergency (note to all don't try shooting your GP11 through your 1889, it could potentially blow up in your face, wanting to shoot it doesn't count as a emergency).

The information I have is that the 1911 action is a strengthened and redesigned action. While incorporating many of the original design features it was in fact a redesigned and different action from the 1889/96 action.
The 1889/96 action having already been shortened by approx. 10mm, relocated bolt lugs and somewhat strengthened over the original 1889 action, the action was again modified and strengthened further in the 1911 actions. The kar31 actions were a complete redesign that incorporated features from the original Schmidt Rubin design but was a complete new action unto its self. Often regarded as the pinicle of the series.

If the 1911 and the 1889/96 actions were the same, why would they distinguish between the; infantry rifle Model 1911 and the; infantry rifle Model 1896/11 or the; Carbine M1911 and the; Carbine model 1900/11 ? These rifles are all but indistinguishable from their respective counterparts if but not for their actions being of two very similar yet distinctively different designs.....or so it would seem to what information I have:
Military Small Arms of the 20th century 4th and 7th editions by: Ivan V. Hogg and John Weeks
Bolt Action Rifles 1st and expanded 3rd Edition by: Frank De Hass
Rifles Of The World by: John Walter

Not having all the respective rifles in my possession for detailed examination however, I concede that my information may be flawed.