School me on 1500$ "tac" scopes

[Mystic Precision]

The choice of FFP is NOT about ranging, UKD vs. KD or distance. It comes down to the types of targets you are shooting at, the number of distances your are shooting at and the time you have to make your shots. The only time SFP is preferred is when you're only shooting at one distance at a time at targets that are sized or have rings that are sized to be a certain MOA so that they can be used as a reference, and when have a generous amount of time to make your shots. Most gallery range shooting sports use targets that have rings or a grid that are sized to be 1 MOA apart at whatever distance is being shot. Shooters make their adjustments off of those rings. They use those rings to make adjustments the same way a PRS/field shooter uses the reticle to make adjustments. If you don't have something simple to reference like that, you're relegated to using an archaic method of estimating a miss in a linear value (inches/cm) and converting to an angular one (MOA/mil). This is very slow and prone to error when done under stress. You are still better off with FFP even when distances are known when you're dealing with multiple distances, odd distances, odd target sizes and/or limited time to make shots.

I offer both SFP and FFP.. I use both so really have no "preferred" style... Each has their pros and cons but for most users the value overlap.

Many (I would think the vast majority by now) F Class shooters use hash mark reticles, just like what you find in FFP scopes (minus Xmas tree). We do cause the targets are NOT scaled properly, not all the time anyways. You can have an inch target used at Metric distances, Old vs New targets, and every now and then, some odd shaped target has to be put into service cause the reg ones are soaked

As much as we wished the rings were scaled in MOA for all distances, they aren't.... especially the "old" ones. That is why plot sheets are used by many who shoot in Canada. have a look at some, the scaling is bonkers. Look at the stack some will carry cause you just never know which target you are going to be aiming at.. far less of an issue in the US.

If you shoot on an NRA target at a long range Palma match, the same target is used at 800, 900 and 1000yds. The scaling works pretty much at 1000yds but are off at the other distances.

Then there is the winds we find at may locations... the highest range I have shot at had a low of 14 mins with a peak of 22mins. The widest range of wind switching was in WA... 12 to 14 mins going from left to right, right to left. The target backstop really isn't that big so you have to dial and/or use the reticle.

With winds moving this violently and fast, most will use the reticle... just like a PRS shooter. if pair firing, you will have to shoot into conditions you don't like so very quickly, you figure out multiple hold offs on your reticle vs flag presentations and just go for it. Way to slow to dial.

When the mag is kept the same, a SFP and FFP do exactly the same thing, work the same way, and have the same math. All SFP scopes can be set so the reticle subtends a whole number or increment of MOA or mils. Some scopes have a 1MOA spacing, others 2 MOA, I set mine so it is 1.5MOA.

We can use the reticle vs shot marker to make an adjustment... ie. shot lands 1 hash mark to the right, hold 1 hash more to the left and send it.

We can use the reticle to calc a turret adjustment. ie 1 hash mark to the right is 1.5MOA in my case... dial 1.5MOA left, send it.

For field shooting, I will use the reticle as a grid/ruler and just move based on where the shot lands relative to the target. If the condition is constant, I can then dial if desired.

The process is identical. The only difference is when you have a need to change through the range of the scope mag and do not have specific points where you stop. For this, the FFP scope is golden cause the reticle subtension doesn't change (shouldn't change)... that's pretty much it.

As I have said, I shoot pretty much at 32X exclusively with a 1.5MOA subtension. If things get really muddy, I might back down to 24x where the subtension is now 2MOA... not exactly a big change in math needed.

For field shooting, I have never found super high mag used in F class to be of benefit so the highest mag I typically use is 24X. And for LR plinking, I just don't see the need to change the mag. I believe most do as well.

Now we get to PRS and the multiple targets, multiple ranges all on the clock... Yep, FFP can really shine here as it is one mental step you don't need to deal with. Simple is very useful when you have a range of tasks at hand. The useage in this sport is testament to this being the "better mousetrap".

Regardless of the mag used, the reticle subtension stays constant so any ranging or adjustment is consistent. All good stuff.

When I review the event needs and format, the one thing I feel is that high mag really isn't that important in a PRS game. The targets are typically scaled quite large and ultra fine shot adjustment just isn't important... hit is a hit, and you are moving to the next task. I feel field of view is far more important as locating the various targets can be a real chore and where you are going to eat up time. Also, bigger field of view helps you with spotting misses... a very important part of the game.

When watching event vids, it is very common to see shooters dial back on the mag to locate the target, then dial up again for more precise aiming. That makes sense but why not keep to a moderate mag and a large field of view all the time????

that is my approach and we will see how well it goes. I like the idea that my ideal high mag scope setting is at full travel of the mag ring.. when the lever stops, all is good. If I have to dial back, my adjustment lever at 12 oclock puts me at a lower mag which has gobs of field of view... any less and I likely can't see the targets anyway. The subtension of the reticle at this mag setting is double what I have at full mag... thinking that could prove very useful on movers.

I just don't see needing anymore then these 2 mag settings and for targets beyond 200yds, I may not even dial back at all?????

For the PRS game, the SFP vs FFP debate has ended a while back... FFP dominates. For me, having used both, I see pros and cons wrt to the subtension debate BUT from my experience in field shooting, I would put more priority on field of view, quality of side focus, ability to see mirage, reticle with good utility, quality of glass (resolution is critical at lower mag). Under the clock, I just don't see myself fidding with the turrents when it comes to windage.

The scope I am going to start off with has 20 MOA of windage on the reticle... If I need more, odds are we are spraying and praying at the target anyways

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[kombayotch]

When watching event vids, it is very common to see shooters dial back on the mag to locate the target, then dial up again for more precise aiming. That makes sense but why not keep to a moderate mag and a large field of view all the time????

Most people who time out on stages do so because they set the magnification too high and can't find the targets quickly, often they tired to do exactly that. You will generally locate targets MUCH more quickly on a low magnification like 5-8x than at a moderate magnification in the mid teens. Higher magnification can help when reading mirage and spotting shots, especially if you have no backstop and only have the bullet swirl to correct off of.

It actually takes practice and discipline to adjust magnification or parallax on a stage while on the clock. People start worrying about time and leave the scope on a poor setting and end up blowing the stage because they can't see their miss or can't find the targets. Sometimes stopping and making those adjustments means the difference between getting half the points on a stage and getting none...

 

[VinceMarksman]

Guys. Lets get back on topic. It would be great if you could give your opinion on the burris xtr ii 5 to 25 and the sightron s3 8 to 32 or 6 to 24

 

[Tikka223]

For fearures and price-point you'd think the XTR-II would be an easy sell but I suspect a Burris just doesn't care. You don't see many review which to means they haven't bothered sending them out to the popular youtube personalities for review AND I suspect they just haven't bothered producing many of them. I'M waiting to come across one in person so I can have a peak. I've been in the market for a new scope for over a year now but I've only been able to handle a few that are on my maybe list. The DMR is high on my list, especially the Gen II, but now I want to wait and see what the PST Gen II will be like. If the Burris was good and i had the chance to play with one, I would have bought it a year ago, but now the competition has had the chance to catch up in features for the price-point.

I too would budget around 1500$ for a scope, +/- some money. For that price point, Bushnell seems the best with good reviews and an excellent reticle. I really want a scope with 10mil turrets and zero stop, which puts me into the ERS ... But now with the Gen 2, you get everything including illumination. The old PST glass wasn't very good in my opinion, hopefully the new stuff with a real zero stop will be better. As for glass at this price-point, the best I've seen is Sightron. Unfortunately, Sightron doesn't make much of a tactical scope when compared to it's competition. Burris could be in there buts it's a mystery because nobody seems to have an XTR-II.

As some have already posted, your intended use should be a huge part of your decision. Personally, I won't by another 2nd FP scope. There are too many useful ways to use FFP and the only drawback is reticle size, which really, isn't a huge deal. Look at the specs on the reticles you are considering. Most have 1moa or smaller aiming dots or cross hairs and if you're shooting at a target so far away that it is obscured by 1moa cross hair, at that distance your rifle probably isn't capable of of holding that 1moa you are asking it to considering how much of a factor wind and other variables are going to be.

I was sold on a FFP the first time I went to zero one. Fire one shot, look at your reticle, enter the corrections, fire shot #2 to confirm. Done. I've only have one SFP scope left and I've had a few misses because I've forgotten that the reticle is only useful on one power.

 

[kombayotch]

Guys. Lets get back on topic. It would be great if you could give your opinion on the burris xtr ii 5 to 25 and the sightron s3 8 to 32 or 6 to 24

You're basically saying "I want to race, should I buy this or this"

The answer depends on the type of racing you want to do.

Saying you want to do "long range shooting" or "I want to shoot out to 1000 yards" isn't specific. There are multiple shooting diciplines that do that and they use different types of equipment. If you don't specify what type you want to do, you will get answers all over the board.

Decide what type of "long range shooting" you want to do and that will dicate the choice.
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...e-most-common-long-range-shooting-disciplines

If you want to do the first, got with the Sightron. The second can use eiher. The third, go with the Burris.

 

[VinceMarksman]

Very insightful

There is a good 3 part review on youtube about the xtr 2

 

[VinceMarksman]

I dont compete nor do I intend to but I would say it tends to be the 2nd and 3rd one in the link you provided

 

[Mystic Precision]

Most people who time out on stages do so because they set the magnification too high and can't find the targets quickly, often they tired to do exactly that. You will generally locate targets MUCH more quickly on a low magnification like 5-8x than at a moderate magnification in the mid teens. Higher magnification can help when reading mirage and spotting shots, especially if you have no backstop and only have the bullet swirl to correct off of.

It actually takes practice and discipline to adjust magnification or parallax on a stage while on the clock. People start worrying about time and leave the scope on a poor setting and end up blowing the stage because they can't see their miss or can't find the targets. Sometimes stopping and making those adjustments means the difference between getting half the points on a stage and getting none...

Very wise words....and strategy.

Since we are into racing analogies... "slow down to go faster"....

to the OP's question, do try and get behind a burris scope if available. I have had several over the years but nothing recent. The optics of old didn't impress. New corporation, maybe new tech, things move along but some brands improve with mergers, others don't.

WRT to glass, the sightrons are a known quantity and very well regarded.

If you have a need where certain features on a scope can help, go for it. If all you are doing in plinking at far away targets, consider those that will help with that task. You suggested that your STAC3-16 was lacking in mag... going to a 24X really isn't that big an increase in mag. I have 2 of the 3-16 scopes and they really do let you see alot at LR.

Did you ever try to aim at a pizza box sized target at 1000yds? I can put the 3-16 LRMOA central dot on an exterior door knob at 1000yds. Not sure how small a target you want to aim at but I doubt a door knob is going to be on the "big" side.

If you really need/want mag to engage your targets, then the SIII 8-32 is a gem and will serve you very well. If conditions are too muddy that you need to back off, you can go back to 24X. With a 24X/25X scope, you can't dial more mag if conditions allow.

WRT to reticle subtension with the 8-32 .... 1.5MOA at 32X, 2MOA at 24X... like me, no biggie.

Eeenie meenie

Jerry