School me on loading cast bullets for my antique revolver

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Barnes_270

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Hi folks,

Thanks in part to great advice on this thread, I've jumped into the world of antique sixguns. Now I need to get to larnin' about casting bullets. I've done a bunch of reading here and over at castboolits, but I still have a few antique-specific questions.

I'll be loading for a 44 Russian, and setting up for casting using straight wheel weights (soft cast). First question - how do I decide if I need to size bullets, or shoot them as cast? Should I slug the bore and compare it to the size of the cast bullets as dropped? Or should I just assume I will need to size?

For those of you who shoot cast in antiques, is there any advice that you think is important but isn't usually spelled out well for noobies like me?

Note: I'm an experienced handloader, and I'm well aware of the need to use light loads, soft lead, etc. I've also read extensively on basic casting safety / practices, so, those bits are covered.

As I mentioned in the above thread, I'm also interested in hearing from guys who reload antique 44s, and what molds work well for you, etc. If anyone is willing to sell me a handful of your cast bullets to try out before I purchase my own molds please send me a PM.

Thanks in advance guys. I love the knowledge base that's represented here.
 
I've had a couple of antique 44 Russian S&W pistols. I would recommend measuring the throats of the chambers to see what diameter to size your bullets too. .430 diameter has worked well for me in all the 44 Russians I've loaded for (not just my own). My favourite bullet was the Keith mould around 255 or 265 grains, sized to .430.
 
I have significant experience casting in silver and gold, so casting lead seemed like a natural thing to do. If you are going to do the wheel weight method then certainly, you have already read the wheel weight sticky. It has some excellent information in it. One tip for your antique bullets is to separate the clip on lead weights from the stick on kind. The stick on ones are pure lead and you can use these for your antique bullets where you want the soft pure lead. This will also serve to make the bullets you cast from the clip on weights harder for your modern bullets which is something you want as well. The wheel weight method is becoming more difficult as more and more weights are made in steel or zinc and these must be sorted out before melting.

Some tips:

Safety first! Have proper gloves, eye protection, fire extinguisher, face mask etc. and use them. Make sure your work area is very well ventilated. Outdoors is best. Water should NEVER come in contact with molten lead.

Buy a can of spray on graphite lube. I use Jig a Loo brand Graphite Extreme from Canadian Tire. Use this on your molds and you will find that the bullets drop out easily. No need to smoke them as this replaces that.

I use a hotplate and old stainless pots with lids for melting the wheel weights and making the ingots. Be sure to spray the ingot molds with the graphite as well. Pots and utensils are cheap at the Goodwill or the dollar store. For faster production use a propane stove or burner of some sort but dedicate it to the task. You don't want to cook on this stuff after you have used it to melt lead. Come to think of it I should have sprayed my utensils with the graphite too. I haven't tried that but I will.

Buy a bottom pour lead melter. I use a Lee Pro 4-20 and it works great for me. A bottom pour melter will allow you to sprinkle some borax on the top of the molten lead. Use enough to cover the surface. This will flux the lead and will seal the surface from contact with air so the tin and antimony won't be able to oxidize thus keeping the good stuff in. This doesn't matter as much when you are casting for your antique as that is pure lead and has nothing to oxidize but it is helpful when you are casting for the modern rounds as you want to keep the tin and antimony in there. Sawdust can be used as flux to get the oxidized metals back in the mix but it is smokey and if you use the borax it won't come out in the first place. I use 20 mule team brand borax found in the washing detergent section of the supermarket. A little goes a long way.

Keep a stubby slotted screwdriver handy when you are pouring from the melter. Adjust the flow of the lead to get it the way you like it. A quarter turn on the adjustment screw can make a big difference. I also had to wrap the handle on my melter in leather and afix it with electrical tape as the darn thing would get to hot to touch. Make sure the tape is only in contact with the leather as it will melt on the metal of the handle.

Buy some sturdy zip lock bags and a sharpie to keep your cast bullets in and label them with everything you know about them. This avoids much grief later.

I slug all my barrels and size my bullets accordingly. I use the Lee Alox method as it is less expensive and takes up less space. When you first start shooting lead bullets with Alox you may find your loads are a bit smokey. This is a sign of too much Alox usually. It takes some practice learning how little of the stuff you actually need.

One of the reasons I size all my bullets is for uniformity. I reload for accuracy so uniformity helps with that even if they were within spec out of the mold. The sizing kits are only $25 or so and they come with a bottle of alox which you need anyway. You will also need to size any bullets that require a gas check as this is how you get the gas check on.

A little later on you may want to purchase a hardness testing kit. This is a handy thing and I especially recommend it if you are making bullets for rifles or any bullet that needs to be very hard. Wheel weights alone are showing to be much too soft for rifle pressures so I will have to find something hard to alloy with to achieve the needed hardness. I will make plinking loads out of the rifle bullets I have already cast as they are too soft for higher pressure.
 
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you dont want pure lead you want a alloy around a 10-13 BHN 20-1 lead/tin covers that but so does clip on wheel weights are cooled

make sure you bell the mouths of your cases enough to grab the bullet and hold it but not too much you dont want it looking like a blunderbuss on the end
 
antiqueguy said:
you dont want pure lead you want a alloy around a 10-13 BHN 20-1 lead/tin covers that but so does clip on wheel weights are cooled

make sure you bell the mouths of your cases enough to grab the bullet and hold it but not too much you dont want it looking like a blunderbuss on the end
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I am about to cast a bunch more bullets for my antiques and I found myself pondering your statement.

My thought was that the original rounds were cast in pure lead so copying that should be a best case scenario.

The difference between 8 and 11 Brinnell really isn't very much different and it would be easy to mix some wheel weight ingots in to achieve this.

Is your reasoning; that the increased hardness is required or that the tin that comes along with it helps fill out the mold?

For that matter, were the original rounds in pure lead?
 
My thought was that the original rounds were cast in pure lead so copying that should be a best case scenario.



For that matter, were the original rounds in pure lead?[/QUOTE]

Winchester 1891 lists most revolver bts as pure lead with exception of 45 Colt & S&W as 1/20 tin lead.
 
Clotho said:
I am about to cast a bunch more bullets for my antiques and I found myself pondering your statement.

My thought was that the original rounds were cast in pure lead so copying that should be a best case scenario.

The difference between 8 and 11 Brinnell really isn't very much different and it would be easy to mix some wheel weight ingots in to achieve this.

Is your reasoning; that the increased hardness is required or that the tin that comes along with it helps fill out the mold?

For that matter, were the original rounds in pure lead?
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pure lead is 5 BHN pure tin is 5 BHN this will only harden alloy to around 10-13 BHN anything harder needs to have antimony added clip on wheel weights are around the same 10-13 BHN when air cooled 20-1 lead/tin is around 10 BHN

you want a good fitting bullet thats whats most important
 
Clotho said:
The difference between 8 and 11 Brinnell really isn't very much different and it would be easy to mix some wheel weight ingots in to achieve this.

Is your reasoning; that the increased hardness is required or that the tin that comes along with it helps fill out the mold?
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Personally, I would lean towards using a 5% alloy because I think it makes casting easier. I don't think small differences in hardness make all that much difference. I would be guessing wildly what was used in original bullets but pure lead would make them easier to swage and it would not surprise me if at least some calibers and types were swaged

cheers mooncoon
 
Thank you guys. I have been separating the stick on weights from the clip ons and my stick on ingots have been coming out at about 8bhn with the clip on ingots at 21bhn. I had assumed that the 8bhn was pure lead but I see that I was in error as pure lead is 5bhn by the wiki article. 5 does seem a bit soft. 8 has been working well but obviously it isn't quite pure. The 21bhn have been nice for my modern pistols but still seems a bit soft for rifle pressures. I will throw some 21bhn in with the 8 to have it come out about 10 or so and give that a try.

I agree that proper slugging and sizing makes a big difference in how well they work and how hard they are on the gun.

I was searching for a hardness - pressure chart and I found this article: Chapter 3 Alloy Selection and Metallurgy which has all kinds of useful information. It looks like I may be able to get my rifle bullets up to task by simply quenching them.

The rest of the book is free online and looks like an excellent source as well: From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners
 
Clotho said:
Thank you guys. I have been separating the stick on weights from the clip ons and my stick on ingots have been coming out at about 8bhn with the clip on ingots at 21bhn. I had assumed that the 8bhn was pure lead but I see that I was in error as pure lead is 5bhn by the wiki article. 5 does seem a bit soft. 8 has been working well but obviously it isn't quite pure. The 21bhn have been nice for my modern pistols but still seems a bit soft for rifle pressures. I will throw some 21bhn in with the 8 to have it come out about 10 or so and give that a try.

I agree that proper slugging and sizing makes a big difference in how well they work and how hard they are on the gun.

I was searching for a hardness - pressure chart and I found this article: Chapter 3 Alloy Selection and Metallurgy which has all kinds of useful information. It looks like I may be able to get my rifle bullets up to task by simply quenching them.

The rest of the book is free online and looks like an excellent source as well: From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners
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21BHN is quite hard in fact i use a alloy around that for my cast rifle loads(remember your not pushing them to jacketed bullet pressures or velocity) only time ive ever seen clip on alloy that hard is water droped are you sure no zinc got into that mix

8bhn with a good fit should do well(i'll tell you what happened her is you got some pure tin stick ons mixed in with pure lead alot of wheel weights are marked as to what they contain BTW just got to look for the two little letters but some are not ;) )
 
I'm sure there is not zinc in the mix. One of the nice things about the hotplate I use for making ingots is that it doesn't get hot enough to melt the zinc but manages the lead reasonably well. The batches can't be too big or it starts to struggle. If I was using some sort of propane burner I would have to be much more careful with the zinc but on the hotplate any zinc weights that manage to get in don't melt and come out with the steel clips.

My ingots are water dropped so that will have some affect on hardness. I am also fairly diligent about keeping the antimony and tin in the mix. I use parafin and sawdust to flux when doing ingots. Based on the different volumes I get separating the stick ons from the clip ons I would guesstimate that the hardness would come out someplace between 10-13bhn if I mixed the two lots together.

I have noticed the letters on the weights and remember the periodic table from years gone by. Very helpful when sorting but you are correct that not all weights are marked. I find a magnet and a scratch test on the concrete floor are pretty good indicators if I have doubts about a particular weight. After sorting many thousands of them you get pretty good at it.

My 21bhn ingots are looking much more promising for gas checked rifle bullets now that I have done more research and it is nice to get your feedback that this is what you use. What would you consider max pressure for a gas checked rifle bullet at 21bhn? The chart I have suggests about 27,000 psi max at that hardness.
 
I actually prefer a softer mixture - half lead and half wheel weights is perfect IMO for old webley and S&W guns and velocity under 1000fps. .

Lead wheel weights vary in composition somewhat - BHN ranges from 10 to 14 in the stuff I've tested. Regardless, wheel weights will work just fine in antique six guns and I've cast and shot several thousand that way. Just make sure you get the zinc weights out before they melt and everything will be fine. When you melt wheel weights don't let the temp get above about 650F and the zinc weights won't melt and will float on top of the lead and are easy to scoop out. A casting thermometer is a great investment.

Whether you need to size depends on your gun and the bullets. For soft-ish lead a bullet diameter .001" to .002" over groove diameter is perfect. I've shot lots of "as cast" soft lead bullets that were .003" over groove diameter but I wouldn't go larger than that. Soft lead bullets are very forgiving compared to jacketed or hard cast bullets.

Shooting "as cast" is much easier and faster and less equipment needed. You can tumble lube using liquid alox and don't need a lube sizer. If you do need to size the bullets you can buy LEE bullet sizing dies for about $20 each and they work in your existing reloading press. They don't lubricate so if you go that route you still need to tumble lube. I started with the LEE dies and tumble lubing with liquid alox and it makes good bullets. If you want to go the Lyman/RCBS lube-sizer route it will cost about $200-$250 for the lube-sizer and $30 for each size of die you need for it. If you're just casting for one bullet then start with a LEE bullet sizing die for $20 and it even includes a can of liquid alox to get you started.
 
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Here is a good website for information about bullet alloys, hardness, shrinkage, etc. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm I have an 1896 catalogue listing the composiition of various bullets for caliber and noticed that the pistol bullets were pure lead. Because of that, I started shooting pure lead (stick on wheel weights) bullets last year. They work wonderfully and put less impact on the forcing cone. Hard cast bullets can and do stretch the frame with enough shooting, so avoid hard cast bullets in your antiques. Modern pistols maybe, but no hard cast in antiques.
 
zinc will melt into lead no matter what your using just got to let it sit long enough

i can tell you that alloy of wheel weights is a normal 10-14 BHN then as you water droped them if you cast pistol bullets most just drop them into a dry towel to protect them and let them air cool

idk what kind of pressures im getting with my rifle loads but im using cast in .303,7.62x54r(mosins and SVT 40),7.62x39(sks),.577-450 thats about it ive used wheel weight alloy in all water droped for the first few and then air cooled for the .577-450
 
Win 38-55 said:
Here is a good website for information about bullet alloys, hardness, shrinkage, etc. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm I have an 1896 catalogue listing the composiition of various bullets for caliber and noticed that the pistol bullets were pure lead. Because of that, I started shooting pure lead (stick on wheel weights) bullets last year. They work wonderfully and put less impact on the forcing cone. Hard cast bullets can and do stretch the frame with enough shooting, so avoid hard cast bullets in your antiques. Modern pistols maybe, but no hard cast in antiques.
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awesome, that webpage looks like exactly what I need!
 
If you find the right bullet caster its way less hassel to buy from them as there all set up have all the right equipment and most have tons of experience.
I buy mine from a fellow close by he really casts nice bullets i pick them up at gun shows to save on shipping and i also bought some off jethunter on CGN to that are were very good.
I feel its better to let them do it for the small amount of money they charge im not gona start breathing in lead fumes or burning my self. molten lead is fricken dangerous in so many ways.
for the 44 russian in a S&W DA you dont want to to soft a bullet it effects accuracy.
My choice has always been for a SWC keith type bullet soft enough i can mark it with my thumb nail but i shoot harder stuff to just not to hard.
 
dingus said:
If you find the right bullet caster its way less hassel to buy from them as there all set up have all the right equipment and most have tons of experience.
I buy mine from a fellow close by he really casts nice bullets i pick them up at gun shows to save on shipping and i also bought some off jethunter on CGN to that are were very good.
I feel its better to let them do it for the small amount of money they charge im not gona start breathing in lead fumes or burning my self. molten lead is fricken dangerous in so many ways.
for the 44 russian in a S&W DA you dont want to to soft a bullet it effects accuracy.
My choice has always been for a SWC keith type bullet soft enough i can mark it with my thumb nail but i shoot harder stuff to just not to hard.
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lead is not all that dangerous lead dose not fume unless it gets too hot and you get more lead dust shoong then you do casting(unless you drop your dross pail then you get a a good bit of lead dust in your face) ive been casting for about 5 years now i know people who have been casting for a heack of alot longer then that no health problems im beginning to think the state of cali is full of s***
 
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