Man. this is quite a thread. In my area of expertise too. I can't reply to it now with any completeness but will advise one thing... I learned this the hard way. Bargain snider rifles are just that. Buy a complete, unaltered example and wait to find one with a VG to excellent bore. DO NOT BUY ANY OF THE RIFLES FROM IMA! This is a personal opinion. We have the remnants of a shipment to our militia in 1867 (30,000 rifles in all configurations) kicking around in Canda. These are the ones to find as many old folks have one squirreled away in a closet. Don't buy a cadet! The easiet to shoot with five groove faster twist rifling is the Sgt.;s rifle or short rifle or two band rifle but my long rifle shoots well too. You may have to pay more money but you will spend your time shooting and not repairing or looking for parts to fix up a bubba special. Good luck. Dave
School me on Sniders
- Thread starter Tinman204
- Start date
I mucked around a bit with changing skirt dimensions which improved things a bit but only a bit. So far the best bullet is one from a custom mold allegedly made for a now retired gunsmith in the BC interior. I think I would call it a collar button type in the sense that it is short with a solid base and a single deep groove. The diameter is about .585 if my memory is correct. I should mention that british minis appear to have had thicker skirt walls than american ones. I have a couple of recovered ones from a former range in Victoria and the wall thickness is about .1" Something I would like to try, out of curiosity, is to drill a nose hole in some and see if that helps. Original slugs apparently had a hollow nose with the lead rolled over to conceal it. Trouble is that yard work is currently taking precedence
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Good advice on the Cadet. I had three of them, and only one was a shooter, even then only after spending a lot of money fixing it. It is now at a new home in Horsefly, BC. The Cadet carbines were never intended for shooting, just drill and blanks. They often have the barrels installed crooked, poorly fitted breech blocks, mis matched parts, etc. Also, they drilled through the barrel to install the bead sight, and most if not all have a huge burr in the bore as a result. I have also noticed that most are built on the II* action, with solid hammer nose. They are the least desirable actions.
I do not like the idea of using .600 round balls at all. I had a mould that cast .590 collar button bullets, and bullets from IT were a tight fit in ever Snider I tried it in! Not just from the muzzle, but the breech as well. What was happening, using that bullet, is it was getting harder and harder to chamber rounds. It turned out that a huge ring of lead had accumulated in the throat, it actually pushed out with a tight fitting patch one day while cleaning it. This could easily lead to increased pressure or worse. That was with .590 bullets, I shudder to think what .600 round balls are doing.
I, too, have read various threads on the net regarding Snider loads, and I usually just shake my head at the BS that is out there. I can only assume that the Nepalese Sniders have ridiculously oversize bores. Another thing, I don't think most folks can accurately slug a 3 or 5 groove bore.
Handled properly, the Snider is a real pleasure to shoot. At our local BP shoots everyone loves shooting my Sniders, and the president of our club even smashed a head size boulder in our backstop with three consecutive shots. The rock had to go, and guys had been trying to wear it down with .303's, .300 mags, etc. but it was the humble Snider that defeated it in the end! The funny thing is, if you read the crap on the internet, there is NO WAY a Snider can hit a head size target at 236yds!
I made up a series of plug guages which are handy for bores with odd numbers of grooves. They are basically a cylinder about 6 to 8 inches long and have a series of steps about 1/2 inch long that go up in intervals of .002". In use, i drop one down the barrel and measure the last step that will enter the muzzle. It does give a fairly accurate bore diameter (from +0 to +.002) but you have to speculate on the depth of rifling to get the groove diameter
cheers mooncoon
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
dont even need that common thing over on BMF is just to roll the slug between the jaws of the calipers
Hi Tinman
Sniders are lotsa fun to shoot, hope you enjoy the journey. I own 2, one long & one short. Both are Mk2** and in only fair to good shape but fun for all. I'm certainly not an expert but can tell you that opinions vary greatly on this subject and likely they are all right regarding their own experiences. No two seem to be or act the same & a load that works great for one will not work at all in others (part of the fun...chuckle). Whatever direction you go, either restoring bubba (some love the challenge) or a top notch example try for the best rifling possible & still I'm sure you will do lots of load variations. Just a few tidbits of my own to follow...
- I've good luck with the Magtech boxer primed 24 ga brass. Available from Doug at "Raynershine" on the praries. (Great fellow). I also use this brass for an "IMPROVED" M-H 577-450 which carries over 150 grains with no issues.
- Nice turned brass available from "Rocky Mountain Cartridge". A bit more $ but nice and remember to anneal for long life. (Also nice people to deal with)
- I prefer reducing loads by adding 50:50 COW(cream of wheat) and ffg to top off with . I use 80 gr ffg topped with 30 gr of the COW mix. The COW mix gets rid of air space & burns off without adding power.
- Lots of good Snider info on the "Britishmilitaria" forum
- A lot of happy people using the .595" - .600" round ball, though I've not tried this myself. I've a custom Lee mold from a fellow in the States which I'm happy with & throws a 480 grain solid bottom .592" bullet. Could be better, but not bad. Lotsa variations & out there to try but definitely get your size to match your barrel.
- Lee makes dies to fit their Classic Cast press. Others such as myself turned up a simple set on a lathe. One for full sizing, and another just to squeeze down the neck enough to hold the next round (Brass seems not to need full resizing regularly & this saves on brass wear.
- always carry lots of ammo .... no, not expecting a Fenian Raid (chuckle) .... just that everyone wants a turn when you get it out on the range, or even out in the back yard.
Enjoy to the max
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty (ps my Ross must be defective as well .... just won't fail)
Sniders are lotsa fun to shoot, hope you enjoy the journey. I own 2, one long & one short. Both are Mk2** and in only fair to good shape but fun for all. I'm certainly not an expert but can tell you that opinions vary greatly on this subject and likely they are all right regarding their own experiences. No two seem to be or act the same & a load that works great for one will not work at all in others (part of the fun...chuckle). Whatever direction you go, either restoring bubba (some love the challenge) or a top notch example try for the best rifling possible & still I'm sure you will do lots of load variations. Just a few tidbits of my own to follow...
- I've good luck with the Magtech boxer primed 24 ga brass. Available from Doug at "Raynershine" on the praries. (Great fellow). I also use this brass for an "IMPROVED" M-H 577-450 which carries over 150 grains with no issues.
- Nice turned brass available from "Rocky Mountain Cartridge". A bit more $ but nice and remember to anneal for long life. (Also nice people to deal with)
- I prefer reducing loads by adding 50:50 COW(cream of wheat) and ffg to top off with . I use 80 gr ffg topped with 30 gr of the COW mix. The COW mix gets rid of air space & burns off without adding power.
- Lots of good Snider info on the "Britishmilitaria" forum
- A lot of happy people using the .595" - .600" round ball, though I've not tried this myself. I've a custom Lee mold from a fellow in the States which I'm happy with & throws a 480 grain solid bottom .592" bullet. Could be better, but not bad. Lotsa variations & out there to try but definitely get your size to match your barrel.
- Lee makes dies to fit their Classic Cast press. Others such as myself turned up a simple set on a lathe. One for full sizing, and another just to squeeze down the neck enough to hold the next round (Brass seems not to need full resizing regularly & this saves on brass wear.
- always carry lots of ammo .... no, not expecting a Fenian Raid (chuckle) .... just that everyone wants a turn when you get it out on the range, or even out in the back yard.
Enjoy to the max
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty (ps my Ross must be defective as well .... just won't fail)
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
id stay away from cream of weat its proven to make pressures jump through the roof also 150gr of powder ina mad balloon head case such as magtech shotshells not a good idea
So it sounds like a Snider will be like my Ross. I pull the old Ross out and EVERYONE wants turn!! My wife now has Ross envy and said if I want to shoot mine then I have to buy one for her! She keeps hogging it and by the time I get to shoot my 50 round case has maybe 15 left!!! Lol! I got her reloading last time cause I said "you want to shoot, then you gotta make the ammo first!" she was nervous but when the first cartridge went off she knew that all was well! Oh well could be worse.
Now she wants a snider and then a carcano, Swedish Mauser and then a k31!!! If I want to stay in a happy cohabitation then I best start crossing off guns on the list!!! I could pee I'm so excited!!
It's all Smellies fault! Thought we were going over for coffee but his scheme was to get the wife hooked on guns that I could actually afford! Well done good sir, well done!!
Keeps the posts coming, I'm loving the info here! Antique shooters are SERIOUS about their craft! I hope to join your ranks soon!
No harm in using cream of wheat with BP, it causes pressure to go high in smokeless loads. We don't use smokeless in this application. Another thing to watch on Sniders is the firing pin, which is retained in the block by a drilled out percussion nipple. The pins are often excessively long, and can pierce primers. You can either shorten the pin, or put a small o-ring under the nipple to shorten it.
If you get high pressure, the Snider would let you know pretty quick, as it has NO primary extraction. Your finger does all the work. You should not need any more force than what your little finger can exert, to extract a fired case. Any more than that, and you might be having a pressure issue.
I started getting sticky extraction at one point, and I think it was due to the terrible ring of lead in the chamber throat. The Snider does not really have a throat, the entrance into the rifling is very abrupt. It was quite shocking to see how much lead was accumulated there.
If you get high pressure, the Snider would let you know pretty quick, as it has NO primary extraction. Your finger does all the work. You should not need any more force than what your little finger can exert, to extract a fired case. Any more than that, and you might be having a pressure issue.
I started getting sticky extraction at one point, and I think it was due to the terrible ring of lead in the chamber throat. The Snider does not really have a throat, the entrance into the rifling is very abrupt. It was quite shocking to see how much lead was accumulated there.
- Location
- Algoma region
Luckily you are in Canada, we used the snider as long or longer then any other Dominion in the empire.
I would even DARE to say they are plentiful here.
I purchased my 3 band Canadian issue mkII* a couple years ago and she is a very good rifle and seems to shoot quite well, keep your eye on the EE they come up often and usually at very fair/inexpensive prices....Ive seen some respectible sporters offered at a pittance above the shipping.
The Snider is the quintessential Canadian service rifle in my mind "after the bess".
Shes a great medium to get into hand loading aswell!
I would even DARE to say they are plentiful here.
I purchased my 3 band Canadian issue mkII* a couple years ago and she is a very good rifle and seems to shoot quite well, keep your eye on the EE they come up often and usually at very fair/inexpensive prices....Ive seen some respectible sporters offered at a pittance above the shipping.
The Snider is the quintessential Canadian service rifle in my mind "after the bess".
Shes a great medium to get into hand loading aswell!
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
cream of wheat does cause problems in BP guns it still plugs up even in a cartridge like the .577 snider best to use 100% cotton balls but for the snider wads could be used
Antiqueguy, are you mixing COW 50:50 with ffg or toping off with it plain? Is this from experience or reading on the internet? Never had any issue with the Snider when mixed as described.
Below are pics of the 577/450 Improved with Magtech cases. Below are some original Snider & M-H rounds with what I'm using. Still looking to find more history on the 577/450 Improved, if anyone has seen such an animal before...
Cheers
Jaguar
Below are pics of the 577/450 Improved with Magtech cases. Below are some original Snider & M-H rounds with what I'm using. Still looking to find more history on the 577/450 Improved, if anyone has seen such an animal before...
Cheers
Jaguar
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
yes the martini improved i think it was epps who made it first
even if mixed with powder COW has shown to make pressures jump there pressure tests on BMF its worse with the martini but its still bad in the snider its simple to stay away from cotton wool works just fin in the martini and felt and fiber wads work well in the snider
COW is like a swear word over on BMF
The .577-450 improved looks like someone ran a .577 Snider chambering reamer into the M-H chamber. I, too, have used Cream of Wheat, both mixed with BP and straight, with absolutely no problems. And I have probably put more rounds through my Sniders than most people have. I take most of the Snider info on the net with a grain of salt, as most of it seems to be based on experience with the Nepalese pseudo-Sniders. I have seen a few of the IMA Martini's and a Snider, and I don't think they are good for much more than wall hangers.
I still disagree totally with this idea of using .600 round balls. If anything is going to raise pressures, I would be worried about that more than cream of wheat. In the black powder era, even groove diameter bullets were rarely used. A bullet about land diameter was normally used, because the explosion of the BP would bump up the slug to fill the grooves. Not until smokeless came along did groove diameter bullets become common, after folks discovered that the bullets they used with black powder gave terrible accuracy with smokeless.
There has to be a pretty big pressure spike as a .600 bullet enters the bore, as there is not really a throat in the Snider barrel. Just a really sharp cone in front of the chamber. Not to mention, that sharp throat is often rather rough. You are far better off for safety's sake using a hollow base bullet of about .580 to .585 tops. My .590 bullets were too big for three of the Sniders I have owned, never tried it in the others. I shelved that mould years ago and have not used it since.
In my Martini Henry I use the same bullets as I use in my .45-70, the Lee .459 hollow base meant for the Springfield. I have examined recovered bullets, and they fill the rifling completely. Accuracy is okay, but could be better. Maybe a larger bullet would be better, but my point is, using black powder will bump up even a considerably undersize bullet to fill the bore. No need to force oversize slugs down a barrel that is, in many cases, 150+ year old iron.
I still disagree totally with this idea of using .600 round balls. If anything is going to raise pressures, I would be worried about that more than cream of wheat. In the black powder era, even groove diameter bullets were rarely used. A bullet about land diameter was normally used, because the explosion of the BP would bump up the slug to fill the grooves. Not until smokeless came along did groove diameter bullets become common, after folks discovered that the bullets they used with black powder gave terrible accuracy with smokeless.
There has to be a pretty big pressure spike as a .600 bullet enters the bore, as there is not really a throat in the Snider barrel. Just a really sharp cone in front of the chamber. Not to mention, that sharp throat is often rather rough. You are far better off for safety's sake using a hollow base bullet of about .580 to .585 tops. My .590 bullets were too big for three of the Sniders I have owned, never tried it in the others. I shelved that mould years ago and have not used it since.
In my Martini Henry I use the same bullets as I use in my .45-70, the Lee .459 hollow base meant for the Springfield. I have examined recovered bullets, and they fill the rifling completely. Accuracy is okay, but could be better. Maybe a larger bullet would be better, but my point is, using black powder will bump up even a considerably undersize bullet to fill the bore. No need to force oversize slugs down a barrel that is, in many cases, 150+ year old iron.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
we are not talking hard cast slugs here round balls are pure lead no pressure issues everyone has used a .600 roundball in the snider at one point and they have gotten good accuracy with them not just in the nepal sniders but british made sniders too
northing wrong with the martinis IMA has just the gahendra's and nepal francotte's(i say they because the fracotte is a belgain design that the nepalese copied but using poor meterals fr the job) i have had 3 mk 4 martinis 2 from the nepal cache no problems a .459 bullet is about the same size as a paper patch bullet for the martini even the military cartridge used a .465" bullet once ptached the throat on the martini is about 8" long it needs a bigger bullet so far .468"-.470" everyone who has used them report good accuracy. i have ran a .475" lee 400gr bullet in my mk 4 with a dead soft alloy of 30/1 lead/tin no problems not a good idea in the early patterns though as the bore on the mk 4 is a bit bigger
bullets dont bump up enough for these guns
Wow fellas, I NOW want a snider even more!! I have a Ross, longbranch and of course I need a snider to fill out the collection. I think it's great that so many of you shoot these old guns. I shoot everything I own very regularly and when I get a snider it will be no different!
NorthCoastBigBore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northwest BC (Rural) 103-I-##
I know, if these guys were selling Ford Pintos I'd have a couple after hearing all this. I've shot some Sniders but no experience loading or really using them. Now I want one too.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
really one thing good a pinto is for is a wheel stand car although they like to go on their roofs once the front wheels get up anyway back on track
sniders are really guns and if you get a god load worked up a nice short range moose thumper with a wide flat point on the bullet it should turn any game into a fountain
NorthCoastBigBore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northwest BC (Rural) 103-I-##
