schultz and Larson 308 norma mag any good? value?

In spite of how many of you are in love with your S&L riffles, I have had a major fault with them. Since the 308 Norma magnum came out prior to the 300 Winchester mag, the Norma 308 mag had a lock on the market and they flew off the shelves in BC. I was quite deeply involved in marketing them at the height of their sales, so have experience with them. They are very accurate, very smooth action and an excellent shaped and built stock. I sighted in more S&L rifles for the new owners than I did for all other makes combined.
But they have a major problem.
With the original Norma factory loads of the day, about one cartridge in three, with either the N308 or the 7x61 calibre would lock up the bolt so tight that a few mighty hard whacks with a stout wooden whacker was required to get the bolt open.
A factory representative came around and I managed to talk with him. They calculated the problem was the locking lugs being far back on the bolt. Thus, with a rifle with the chamber being on the tight end of tolerance, the bolt would compress enough on firing to lock it up tight. Owners were cautioned to keep the chambers of their rifles polished clean and kept dry.
This was in the mid 1960s and Weatherby magnums were already making large inroads into the magnum market and since no one had heard of the Weatherby's having trouble with too heavy of loads, their sales really increased.
Sorry you guys, but that's the way it was!
 
7x61 calibre would lock up the bolt so tight that a few mighty hard whacks with a stout wooden whacker was required to get the bolt open.
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I have never had this problem but I have not shot mine a ton. Do you remember what kind of ammo you were using ?
 
H4831 said:
In spite of how many of you are in love with your S&L riffles, I have had a major fault with them. Since the 308 Norma magnum came out prior to the 300 Winchester mag, the Norma 308 mag had a lock on the market and they flew off the shelves in BC. I was quite deeply involved in marketing them at the height of their sales, so have experience with them. They are very accurate, very smooth action and an excellent shaped and built stock. I sighted in more S&L rifles for the new owners than I did for all other makes combined.
But they have a major problem.
With the original Norma factory loads of the day, about one cartridge in three, with either the N308 or the 7x61 calibre would lock up the bolt so tight that a few mighty hard whacks with a stout wooden whacker was required to get the bolt open.
A factory representative came around and I managed to talk with him. They calculated the problem was the locking lugs being far back on the bolt. Thus, with a rifle with the chamber being on the tight end of tolerance, the bolt would compress enough on firing to lock it up tight. Owners were cautioned to keep the chambers of their rifles polished clean and kept dry.
This was in the mid 1960s and Weatherby magnums were already making large inroads into the magnum market and since no one had heard of the Weatherby's having trouble with too heavy of loads, their sales really increased.
Sorry you guys, but that's the way it was!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the background info Bruce. Much appreciated. What you've made reference to is a basic down side to the rear locking lugs design. To date, touch wood, I've never experienced any problem with my 7x61S&H, 308NM and 358NM however the factory ammo use in any of the three has been almost nil. Reloads has been the main diet, however, prior to getting the 358NM, I did acquire a good supply of factory ammo. No problems, yet. My first 308NM was a Parker Hale Safari Deluxe and that did get primarily a factory ammo diet. Since acquiring the S&L in 308NM, it's been fed reloads. Your info may be of interest to a gentleman here on the island who I believe is a S&L collector. dwh44.
 
I currently own Schultz & Larsen rifles in 22-250, 243 Win,264 Win Mag, 7x61 S&H, 7 mm Rem Mag, 308 Norma Mag, 338 Win Mag, and .358 Norma Mag. I have shot them all extensively and have never had the problem Bruce described. All of my Schultz's will shoot 1/2" 3 shot groups @ 100 yds with good quality factory ammo or reloads. I have also owned the rarest Schultz of them all; the Model 54J in 378 Weatherby mag (less than 300 ever produced). I used to collect the old L61R Sako rifles until I discovered Schultz & Larsen. IMHO they are the finest factory produced sporting rifle ever made.
 
S&L proofed their rifles at 100,000 psi. That is one of the reasons S&L built Roy Weatherby's first rifles.

And yes they are accurate. My 54j in 7x61 s&h will repeatably put 5 bullets into a 1 inch cluster at 200 meters.
 
H4831 said:
In spite of how many of you are in love with your S&L riffles, I have had a major fault with them. Since the 308 Norma magnum came out prior to the 300 Winchester mag, the Norma 308 mag had a lock on the market and they flew off the shelves in BC. I was quite deeply involved in marketing them at the height of their sales, so have experience with them. They are very accurate, very smooth action and an excellent shaped and built stock. I sighted in more S&L rifles for the new owners than I did for all other makes combined.
But they have a major problem.
With the original Norma factory loads of the day, about one cartridge in three, with either the N308 or the 7x61 calibre would lock up the bolt so tight that a few mighty hard whacks with a stout wooden whacker was required to get the bolt open.
A factory representative came around and I managed to talk with him. They calculated the problem was the locking lugs being far back on the bolt. Thus, with a rifle with the chamber being on the tight end of tolerance, the bolt would compress enough on firing to lock it up tight. Owners were cautioned to keep the chambers of their rifles polished clean and kept dry.
This was in the mid 1960s and Weatherby magnums were already making large inroads into the magnum market and since no one had heard of the Weatherby's having trouble with too heavy of loads, their sales really increased.
Sorry you guys, but that's the way it was!
Click to expand...

I know of two S&L rifles and both have this issue. End up breaking the exracter..not easy to find replacement.
 
Yes, the bolt lockup is a known issue. This was particularly evident with the first issue 7x61 and 308 Norma Mag factory ammo.
This stuff was loaded plenty warm. Not long ago, digging around, I found a few rounds of original [early issue] 308 Norma Mag ammo.
Just for S&G, I ran 3 across my Oehler 33. all were well over 3100 out of a 24" tube.....that is plenty warm!!
While the 308 Norma Mag is my all time favorite big 30, I have no S&L rifles. I have owned 3 over the years, and they were
wonderfully accurate, but, when loaded warm, brass life reduces noticeably.....rear locking lugs again, I'm thinking.
I have no less than 5 308 Norma Mags ATM, 3 are custom rifles, the other 2 are factory chamberings
Leeper built me a 308 Norma on a 700 action. It has a 26" barrel, 1-10" twist. I can drive the 180's to just over 3100 in comfort
with it, and it has delivered groups as small as 5/8" at 200M.........good enough! D.
 
The hottest loads that I tested in my S&L was 76gr of IMR4831 with 165 gr hornady bullets. Through my chrony they registered 3250 fps. No sticky bolt. I got about 8-10 loadings out of the brass. I haven't shot my S&L in years now, its became a safe queen.
 
H4831 said:
In spite of how many of you are in love with your S&L riffles, I have had a major fault with them. Since the 308 Norma magnum came out prior to the 300 Winchester mag, the Norma 308 mag had a lock on the market and they flew off the shelves in BC. I was quite deeply involved in marketing them at the height of their sales, so have experience with them. They are very accurate, very smooth action and an excellent shaped and built stock. I sighted in more S&L rifles for the new owners than I did for all other makes combined.
But they have a major problem.
With the original Norma factory loads of the day, about one cartridge in three, with either the N308 or the 7x61 calibre would lock up the bolt so tight that a few mighty hard whacks with a stout wooden whacker was required to get the bolt open.
A factory representative came around and I managed to talk with him. They calculated the problem was the locking lugs being far back on the bolt. Thus, with a rifle with the chamber being on the tight end of tolerance, the bolt would compress enough on firing to lock it up tight. Owners were cautioned to keep the chambers of their rifles polished clean and kept dry.
This was in the mid 1960s and Weatherby magnums were already making large inroads into the magnum market and since no one had heard of the Weatherby's having trouble with too heavy of loads, their sales really increased.
Sorry you guys, but that's the way it was!
Click to expand...

So true your statement be of the S&L action. The compressible nature of that long, rear locker made for much frustration for buddies of mine when using warm handloads back in the 70's & 80's. The rear locking Remington 788 was a far stiffer action, but only available in .308 length though & not as purdy as the S&L.
 
Hi guys, I can answer several of you here. The original Norma ammo of the day was without doubt, hot. The headstamp was marked, "Re," behind the calibre, apparently meaning it was reloadable. These original loadings had a short run and were replaced with lower velocity loadings. Not unusual for the rifles to be proofed at 100,000 psi, as Mauser also proofed their 98 action rifles for 100,000.
Norma always accurate ballistic velocities of their loads, and Dave, it looks like you proved them right on your sample of the original loaded ammo.
There was about one rifle in three would give trouble 7x61, but not near that number in 308 mag.
In later years I knew a shooter who had five S&L rifles, the two mags and three others, including a 243 Winchester calibre. Wow, how I drooled over that 243, without doubt the best 243 I ever saw.
Bruce
 
I should have pointed out that with all the sighting in I did with the two S&L magnum calibres, I never saw a single rifle that would not hold a solid, nearly always sub MOA group, with the barrel too hot to touch. In other words, we made no attempt to keep the barrel cool.
This is a sure sign of a high quality rifle, tuned and bedded to perfection.
 
H4831 said:
I should have pointed out that with all the sighting in I did with the two S&L magnum calibres, I never saw a single rifle that would not hold a solid, nearly always sub MOA group, with the barrel too hot to touch. In other words, we made no attempt to keep the barrel cool.
This is a sure sign of a high quality rifle, tuned and bedded to perfection.
Click to expand...

In an earlier post I mentioned I had been told by an old European gunsmith years back in the interior, that the barrels S&L used were douglas airguage in quality. In addition, the overall rifle quality was top of the line compared to that of many other manufacturers. Since I saw my first S&L, I've been hooked and it's my favorite bolt action. An aspect of the action that can be a bit of an issue is the narrow ejection port. I was told this, along with the metallurgy used in the action, was a design feature ment to minimize action stretch. Apparently S&L believed that could be more of a problem than compression of the bolt with heavy/hot loads. My first S&L was the 308NM



And, no complaints on the accuracy. It has served me well on a number of occasions.



The closest thing I have to a collection, is my three S&L's, as/the joint effort of development between S&L and Norma. Top down;
- a model 68DL in 7x61S&H
- a model 65DL in 308NM
- a model 68DL in 358NM


:d :d :d
 
Kripes, now yew'awl jawggled a memory.
Back in the day at our local gun shop was a pretty, well very pretty S$L of all things,
in the .308win.
Man, I should of bawt that gal.
Price still rings me tinnineyetits.............$1500 and I bet this was back twenty or so years ago.
If only one could grab Micky's ears and go counter clawkwize.
 
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