Scope for AR
- Thread starter Rugerman
- Start date
Sparrow had a source a while back. I got my Elcan from him.
I take it off my rifle EVERY time after my range shooting (my rifle case is too small) and it holds zero EVERY SINGLE time !
Sparrow is GREAT to deal with (not to mention professional to deal with too) and I got mine 2nd hand.
Email Sparrow and see if he still can get you one.
I take it off my rifle EVERY time after my range shooting (my rifle case is too small) and it holds zero EVERY SINGLE time !
Sparrow is GREAT to deal with (not to mention professional to deal with too) and I got mine 2nd hand.
Email Sparrow and see if he still can get you one.
I guess I am getting old, but I think a Service Rifle Shoot should be open sight. Most of the stuff I see in this cat. is race guns, "he with the most money wins".
I used to do the run downs in Chilliwack with an open sighted C1A1, not a tricked out AR.
I used to do the run downs in Chilliwack with an open sighted C1A1, not a tricked out AR.
jeepingpw said:
There are hardly any race guns at the BCRA and a race rifle is not a sure way to win anyway, the match conditions sort that out, most guys use an AR with Elcan and that seems to dominate the matches.
I am still trying to find out the rules for these shoots.
I would like to come out & try them.
Types of classes?
Types of rifles?
types of optics?
mods to rifles?
Our shoots in Vernon are not BCRA or DCRA, but all firearms must be as issued except for the:
Open Sniper (must be military cal. bolt , any scope) or
Advanced Combat Rifle , stock military as issued
(except for the AR180B/Mini 14 as it's not military issue) with a 4x max scope. No custom paint jobs, T handles, ect.
I would like to come out & try them.
Types of classes?
Types of rifles?
types of optics?
mods to rifles?
Our shoots in Vernon are not BCRA or DCRA, but all firearms must be as issued except for the:
Open Sniper (must be military cal. bolt , any scope) or
Advanced Combat Rifle , stock military as issued
(except for the AR180B/Mini 14 as it's not military issue) with a 4x max scope. No custom paint jobs, T handles, ect.
jeepingpw said:
No classes
Basically any service type rifle, numpties with sniper rifles are frowned upon
Any optic
most mods OK but there is a trigger weight limit of 4.5lbs ???(someone pipe in here)
Paint is A-OK
Sparrow is right on here.Service rifle has basically been turned into Any rifle.In keeping with the spirit of things,most guys shoot it with an AR with some type of 4x scope.Elcan or not.Other types you might see are M-14/M305's and definately some Ranger Enfields.We do see the odd heavy barreled AR but generally speaking an H Bar is all you need.SR in BC seems to be one place arms races are frowned upon.Most of the guys would rather win on skill than with a race gun.That's not to say you can't shoot one...but your going to feel like a smeg head if you get your butt handed to you by some private with a rat grade C7.
JeepingPw:
I'm an FNC1A1 kinda guy, too. I recall doing the rundowns in Wainwright Battle School and getting gassed WHILE doing the rundown.
Line stops, loaded C1 is placed butt down between the legs, go through your gas mask drills, FPO advances the line. yuk, yuk, yuk.
Now I'm shooting an HBAR instead of an iron sighted M14 (May 2005 was my most recent match with iron sights). I observed that many of us in the ORA and DCRA Service rifle shoots at one time used the Leupold VariX III 3.5 x 10 x 40 Tactical scopes. Then some people tried 4.5 x 14 x 50mm tactical scopes with side focus, then I recall some people shot M14's mounted with 6.5 x 20 x 50mm LR/T M1 scopes. The progression was crazy.
Now we have returned to lower power scopes NOT because of the "spirit" or changing the rules and asking people to conform. Heck no... all of us realized that the MR/T series of scopes like the 3 x 9 x 36 mm and the 1.5 x 5 x 20mm are more practical, smaller, and facilitate better scores for the Service Rifle game.
So these observations come from running the matches at NSCC (Connaught) last summer (2005) and the rest of the ORA matches throughout the season. We've been suggesting to people with fancy scopes to try the MR/T or the CQ/T line of Leupold scopes or maybe an equivalent model of the IOR Valdada scopes. I've seen a few ACOG's like the TA31F and the TA01 NSN making a comeback on the line. Gone are the days of the huge scopes. Many top shooters in the ORA still advocate the ELCAN.
Now regarding the race guns, we hardly see them anymore at the ORA and DCRA matches. You see, if the matches are run IAW DCRA rules, the race guns pose no advantage. Instead the race guns are at a disadvantage since the shooter focuses on the hardware instead of the wind conditions, the mag changes, the rundowns and breath recovery, yada, yada, yada... I've been there with my stainless bbl'ed 20" long 8" twist DPMS AR shooting moly'ed 75 gr. AMAX bullets. I've witnessed many top civilian shooters return to standard 20", 16" and behold 14.5" carbine barrels with lower powered scopes.... now they are shooting even higher scores... I should know, I have all (archived for 2 years in my basement) the scorecards for the ORA shoots. ha ha ha
Finally, I have to humbly admit that several privates with rack grade C7A1's have in fact booted my 500 point ass all around the range.
So, the argument of large power scopes et al are a moot point. In Service Conditions matches it's still about intense training and superior fitness. Just witness back in 2001 and 2002 (last years for CFSAC), how the Reg/Res forces would train for 4 to 6 weeks before CFSAC started. You never saw any Civvies (NSCC ran concurrently) on the podium, EVER. I should know, I was one of the half dozen civvies there, getting my ass kicked by ELCAN's.
Cheers,
Barney
I'm an FNC1A1 kinda guy, too. I recall doing the rundowns in Wainwright Battle School and getting gassed WHILE doing the rundown.
Line stops, loaded C1 is placed butt down between the legs, go through your gas mask drills, FPO advances the line. yuk, yuk, yuk.
Now I'm shooting an HBAR instead of an iron sighted M14 (May 2005 was my most recent match with iron sights). I observed that many of us in the ORA and DCRA Service rifle shoots at one time used the Leupold VariX III 3.5 x 10 x 40 Tactical scopes. Then some people tried 4.5 x 14 x 50mm tactical scopes with side focus, then I recall some people shot M14's mounted with 6.5 x 20 x 50mm LR/T M1 scopes. The progression was crazy.
Now we have returned to lower power scopes NOT because of the "spirit" or changing the rules and asking people to conform. Heck no... all of us realized that the MR/T series of scopes like the 3 x 9 x 36 mm and the 1.5 x 5 x 20mm are more practical, smaller, and facilitate better scores for the Service Rifle game.
So these observations come from running the matches at NSCC (Connaught) last summer (2005) and the rest of the ORA matches throughout the season. We've been suggesting to people with fancy scopes to try the MR/T or the CQ/T line of Leupold scopes or maybe an equivalent model of the IOR Valdada scopes. I've seen a few ACOG's like the TA31F and the TA01 NSN making a comeback on the line. Gone are the days of the huge scopes. Many top shooters in the ORA still advocate the ELCAN.
Now regarding the race guns, we hardly see them anymore at the ORA and DCRA matches. You see, if the matches are run IAW DCRA rules, the race guns pose no advantage. Instead the race guns are at a disadvantage since the shooter focuses on the hardware instead of the wind conditions, the mag changes, the rundowns and breath recovery, yada, yada, yada... I've been there with my stainless bbl'ed 20" long 8" twist DPMS AR shooting moly'ed 75 gr. AMAX bullets. I've witnessed many top civilian shooters return to standard 20", 16" and behold 14.5" carbine barrels with lower powered scopes.... now they are shooting even higher scores... I should know, I have all (archived for 2 years in my basement) the scorecards for the ORA shoots. ha ha ha
Finally, I have to humbly admit that several privates with rack grade C7A1's have in fact booted my 500 point ass all around the range.
So, the argument of large power scopes et al are a moot point. In Service Conditions matches it's still about intense training and superior fitness. Just witness back in 2001 and 2002 (last years for CFSAC), how the Reg/Res forces would train for 4 to 6 weeks before CFSAC started. You never saw any Civvies (NSCC ran concurrently) on the podium, EVER. I should know, I was one of the half dozen civvies there, getting my ass kicked by ELCAN's.
Cheers,
Barney
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Thanks for all the comments guys.
The problem is that i have astigmatism in my right eye. Even with a contact lens, my vision is still a bit blurry past 3 meters ! So i MUST have a scope, 'cause my eye only focuses properly at a very short distance.
The other thing is budget. I simply cannot afford a 900-1500$ scope this year. Being in the CF reserve, i can always borrow the Elcan from my unit (that's what i did last year for my first SR rifle shoot at Connaught).
It's a bummer that i can't always have the Elcan on my AR. At least the collimator helps to zero it quickly, even if my AR has a 16" barrel.
So i'm just looking for a sturdy, but inexpensive scope & rings in the 150 $ range (zoom between 3x to 6x with mildot or any BDC system).
Of course the Leupold or IOR Valdada will come next year... when i get a job to fund it...
The problem is that i have astigmatism in my right eye. Even with a contact lens, my vision is still a bit blurry past 3 meters ! So i MUST have a scope, 'cause my eye only focuses properly at a very short distance.
The other thing is budget. I simply cannot afford a 900-1500$ scope this year. Being in the CF reserve, i can always borrow the Elcan from my unit (that's what i did last year for my first SR rifle shoot at Connaught).
It's a bummer that i can't always have the Elcan on my AR. At least the collimator helps to zero it quickly, even if my AR has a 16" barrel.
So i'm just looking for a sturdy, but inexpensive scope & rings in the 150 $ range (zoom between 3x to 6x with mildot or any BDC system).
Of course the Leupold or IOR Valdada will come next year... when i get a job to fund it...
AR Fun
NOW that changes things... the dreaded (low $ ) budget.
How about running a Bushnell 3200 10x Mildot with Millett high rings ( $ 35) mounted on a flat top riser ($ 30) ?
I realize that the 10x is a little high powered for our matches, but at least you will be participating. The next good part is that for $ 240 , you will ALWAYS get your money out of the Bushnell 10x scope since this is the scope supplied with Barrett .50 Cal rifles.
Since the scope has a mildot reticle, you can get away with zeroing at 200 m/yds. at the center. One mildot at 100m is about 10 cm or about 4 inches.
You can get away with using the mildots, somewhat. Just do lots of experimenting with your sighters (we give you 5, remember?) at that firing mound. The 3rd best advantage of that Bushnell Elite 3200 10X mildot is that the knobs are large and easy to turn/read under stress(run downs, "Sights & Safety" mantra).
I love these knobs since ONLY ONE Allen key is needed to free up the windage/elevation barrels, just like my LR/T Leupold Mark 4's or MR/T Mark 4.
I hope this can help you out.... I've been where you are , regarding the budget....
See you in Connaught,
Barney
NOW that changes things... the dreaded (low $ ) budget.
How about running a Bushnell 3200 10x Mildot with Millett high rings ( $ 35) mounted on a flat top riser ($ 30) ?
I realize that the 10x is a little high powered for our matches, but at least you will be participating.
The next good part is that for $ 240 , you will ALWAYS get your money out of the Bushnell 10x scope since this is the scope supplied with Barrett .50 Cal rifles. Since the scope has a mildot reticle, you can get away with zeroing at 200 m/yds. at the center. One mildot at 100m is about 10 cm or about 4 inches.
You can get away with using the mildots, somewhat. Just do lots of experimenting with your sighters (we give you 5, remember?) at that firing mound. The 3rd best advantage of that Bushnell Elite 3200 10X mildot is that the knobs are large and easy to turn/read under stress(run downs, "Sights & Safety" mantra).
I love these knobs since ONLY ONE Allen key is needed to free up the windage/elevation barrels, just like my LR/T Leupold Mark 4's or MR/T Mark 4.
I hope this can help you out.... I've been where you are , regarding the budget....
See you in Connaught,
Barney
Airborne69:
I've heard lots and lots of legitimate complaining about the ELCAN, but you know at my matches, I get my ass kicked by ELCAN scopes.
We even have a QM veteran shooting 55 gr. FMJ's with an ELCAN trashing our asses all over the range outta his A2 Government bbl'ed flat top.
So, I've learned to shut my (humbled) mouth about the ELCANs... then again, that beating I get happens on a KD range and not in the field. And yes, I agree with you that the ACOG is an excellent piece of kit. And also illegal to export outta the US without piles of paperwork.
Cheers,
Barney
I've heard lots and lots of legitimate complaining about the ELCAN, but you know at my matches, I get my ass kicked by ELCAN scopes.
We even have a QM veteran shooting 55 gr. FMJ's with an ELCAN trashing our asses all over the range outta his A2 Government bbl'ed flat top.
So, I've learned to shut my (humbled) mouth about the ELCANs... then again, that beating I get happens on a KD range and not in the field. And yes, I agree with you that the ACOG is an excellent piece of kit. And also illegal to export outta the US without piles of paperwork.
Cheers,
Barney
Airborn_69 said:
It is not a matter of personal preference dude, it is a matter of perspective. You relish-pat guys have some legitimate concerns about the Elcan, from weight, bulk and zero retention in an operational tempo. However its ease of use and clarity cannot be argued so having said that,for 99% of us who take gun from safe, put in box, drive to known distance range, remove gun, walk to firing line, shoot match, rinse and repeat the Elcan kicks ass. YMMV.
just got a Colt copy 4x with bullet drop comp for my kids AR. Now he can hit a Fig 11 at 300m (as far as our range goes).
Just ordered an AR180B & StormWerkz scope rail & CAR stock adapter, then an AR15 flash hider. I have a 8-32x50 scope for it & looking to get something in the 4 to 6x class .
Want to do some BCRA shoots, but prob just the Kamloops one due to cost
Just ordered an AR180B & StormWerkz scope rail & CAR stock adapter, then an AR15 flash hider. I have a 8-32x50 scope for it & looking to get something in the 4 to 6x class .
Want to do some BCRA shoots, but prob just the Kamloops one due to cost
jeepingpw said:just got a Colt copy 4x with bullet drop comp for my kids AR. Now he can hit a Fig 11 at 300m (as far as our range goes).
Just ordered an AR180B & StormWerkz scope rail & CAR stock adapter, then an AR15 flash hider. I have a 8-32x50 scope for it & looking to get something in the 4 to 6x class .
Want to do some BCRA shoots, but prob just the Kamloops one due to cost
I love shooting the Kamloops match, the Major puts on a great show, but to get the full Service Rilfe experience you have to shoot at Vokes, it is easily the best maintained range in Canada, imagine shooting on a Golf course with snow capped peaks as the back drop.
i used to shoot the Service rifle shoots in Chillawack back in the day of the FN. Remember going to the pistol shoot & stopping in at the local LCB for some pops , going in with my HP in holster not even thinking about it Made the Bisley Service rifle team in '83 but decided not to go. Was just there in '82 on the Full Bore team (Sportco).
I don't think i can afford to come to the coast (gas plus BCRA memberships x2 & ammo/ entry fee x2, damn kids)
Can we come to Kamloops without being BCRA members?
Made the Bisley Service rifle team in '83 but decided not to go. Was just there in '82 on the Full Bore team (Sportco).I don't think i can afford to come to the coast (gas plus BCRA memberships x2 & ammo/ entry fee x2, damn kids)
Can we come to Kamloops without being BCRA members?
