Scope Selection: Budget Precision under 500 yards

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mv2

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Hi,

New member and fairly new to the hobby as well. I'm in the market for a 308 bolt (in the price/quality range of 110 Tactical, T3X CTR, B-14 HMR) and looking to narrow down some good optics choices. Usage will be gongs and paper under 500 yards unless I get invited to a big range. Maybe an annual hunting trip once I'm comfortable & competent with all the equipment. I would prefer to overspend now on something I can grow into later.

I have watched The Social Regressive "Optics Guide" series in full, so I have the basic concepts down: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCzJy0eY5h1GqUpIW2tg8yD5hHGN1Qsc4

My features wishlist so far:
- adjustable windage & elavation turrets
- FFP with holdovers
- mil system (grid & turrets)
- zoom range of 3-18x, 4-16x or 6-24x
- price point of $1000 +/- $100 is comfortable for me

Based on intended usage, cost, weight, etc., I've basically narrowed it down to a 4-16x FFP Mil scope with Christmas tree reticle. Therefore if I were to buy today, I would probably go for the Primary Arms GLx 4-16x50 FFP Athena BPR Mil ($1050).

However, a few questions linger in my mind:
- will I miss the max zoom range from 16-24x offered by a 6-24x scope? Perhaps only useful if I'm at a bigger range...
- will I miss the min zoom range from 3-6x or 4-6x if I went for a 6-24x scope? Especially for hunting the wider FOV may be important for target acquisition. I couldn't get a good feel for this on a cheap 2-7x rimfire scope.
- How does Primary Arms compare to Arken and other "budget but decent quality" options?

Please share recommendations or opinions. Thanks!

- mv2
 
At your price point I would take a serious look at the Vortex Strike Eagle 3-18x44 or the Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50.

Imo you need illumination and a min zoom below 4 unless you only hunt in wide open spaces. Especially with an FFP scope.

The Athlon is heavier but both can be used for hunting and target shooting.
 
Go with lower magnification for hunting. 3-18 is plenty. Illumination is helpful at first and last light. That being said, better glass with less magnification is better in low light.
 
I bought a 4-16 x 44 primary arms a few years ago for a secondary scope I now use on my sons 7mm-08. We shoot it out to 500M no problems.

Plenty of options, or even a 4-12 leupold in vx3 would do the trick, just don't know if there are any FFP without looking.
 
Arken EP5 - incredible glass. Better than scopes that are twice the price. I've had the Vortex, Leupold, Athlon (all sub $1200 models) and the Arken blows them all out of the water. If you're hunting though, you may not want big protruding turrets.

https://gobigtactical.ca/online-sto...FFP-MIL-VPR-Reticle-with-Zero-Stop-p438103629

Also, look at the T3X (not CTR -you wouldn't want to carry that around in the woods for miles...) and the new CZ600 models. I picked up a 223 and am loving it.
 
I just shot a 3.8 moa red dot on a rifle I had previously shot with a 6x at 200 yards and shot the same size group if not a bit tighter. Point being the gun is the gun, it will shoot better and more consistently than you do regardless the optic or magnification range. Just to keep that in mind.

Next, good rule of thumb is 1x magnification for every 100 yards you intend to shoot. There are guys out there shooting 308's with iron sights and a sling at 1000 yards that would embarrass most of us with our scoped options. There are lots with fixed 10x shooting at 1000 also. Out to 5-600 I like 9x on the top end for my minimum top end after shooting everything up to 20x. I primarily hunt but do like to prep and see my typical group sizes on my own gongs out to 600. I've taken fixed 6x of mediocre quality glass to field (leupold 6x36) and felt that both the glass and mag range didn't make me very happy, I think the glass quality was more important than the magnification range. So you can compensate with magnification range for mediocre glass/image quality. Keep that in mind also. The scope I run now is like turning a light on compared to the typical vx3 leupolds and at only 3-9x I think nothing of it for longer shooting as the image is excellent, bright and sharp. Hitting coyotes at 500 would not be an issue with the 3-9x I'm running now. Already have deer to 420 with it.

For what you're doing you could go as simple as a budget bolt action standard weight 22" with a basic 3-9x and either a cds turret for elevation and a or a lr duplex or mil-dot type reticle landing in the 7-8 lb range scoped...the sky is the limit from there and it's not hard to land in the 10-14 lb range. The full blow target rigs and hunting rigs are two completely different things. It's easier to take a nice simple light hunting set up over to the range than the opposite. Dragging heavy complex over gunned over scoped options to hunting is the wrong way to go and will potentially cost you efficiency afield on game.

Weigh out what is actually most important to you. Choose your gear to your theme. Then the best thing you can do is get good with it. Learn your choice and become at one with it and it will serve you well when you go auto-pilot in a real hunting situation. Confidence and practice is the most important thing. Set up and gear appropriate for the job is also very important. 5-600 is not hard to shoot well even with minimalist hunter only focused set up.

Another good resource to watch would be The Best of the West instructional videos that started the long range hunting game. Good to know where all this stuff you're interested started. And like occams razor (where we often come up with the best solutions the first time round) you will still see great value in setting up that way. At least you should compare it to all this new instructional info.

You'll likely do like most of us and buy and try all sorts of gear and methods over the years, that's part of the fun, but like a lot of who go up and down that road awhile we tend to come back to the old occams razor solutions or simpler solutions that we found worked best for our personal wiring and needs. But I'd rather take my hunting set up to the range than my range set up hunting. If you can't have a set up for each then pick the one you need most and away you go.
 
Add the Athlon Helos BTR Gen2 family to your investigation. My fave is the 34mm tube 6-24X56. As much as I love the Ares ETR, this Helos is right there for 1/2 the price... I now have several sitting on my rifles and more on the way.

Jerry
 
A 3-15/18 or 4-16 should be perfect for what you want. A few things to keep in mind though:

-glass quality trumps magnification, no question;

-the higher the magnification ratio (a 3-15 is a 5x mag ratio) the worse the optical quality will be for a given price (be it clarity, eyebox, etc);

-higher magnification (than say 15 or so) is really only useful for zeroing/load development work and isn't often all that necessary for field shooting

-when hunting with a FFP illumination is pretty much a must as the reticle will generally be next to useless at minimum magnification;

-the old rule was 1x magnification per 100yds but it's generally accepted that it's more like 2x per 100yds now, especially if shooting solo as you don't just need to hit what you're aiming at but also positively identify what you're shooting at as well as spot your hits/misses

-locking elevation and windage (or capped windage) turrets are a nice feature when hunting as you won't be able to spin a turret by bumping them

So with all that being said, I'd steer you towards a quality 3-15 or 4-16 optic that has the features you want and is in your price range. Understanding that everything is a compromise, I'd be more willing to compromise on some of the attributes that are good for hunting as this will primarily be a range rifle, per your OP. If and when you do go hunting, you'll be able to use your setup regardless and qill quickly determine what you would like to do differently for a hunting rig. In all likelihood (and depending on what kind of hunting you do and in what terrain) you'll end up with 2 rifles, one for the range and one for hunting.
 
rugbydave said:
A 3-15/18 or 4-16 should be perfect for what you want. A few things to keep in mind though:

-glass quality trumps magnification, no question;

-the higher the magnification ratio (a 3-15 is a 5x mag ratio) the worse the optical quality will be for a given price (be it clarity, eyebox, etc);

-higher magnification (than say 15 or so) is really only useful for zeroing/load development work and isn't often all that necessary for field shooting

-when hunting with a FFP illumination is pretty much a must as the reticle will generally be next to useless at minimum magnification;

-the old rule was 1x magnification per 100yds but it's generally accepted that it's more like 2x per 100yds now, especially if shooting solo as you don't just need to hit what you're aiming at but also positively identify what you're shooting at as well as spot your hits/misses

-locking elevation and windage (or capped windage) turrets are a nice feature when hunting as you won't be able to spin a turret by bumping them

So with all that being said, I'd steer you towards a quality 3-15 or 4-16 optic that has the features you want and is in your price range. Understanding that everything is a compromise, I'd be more willing to compromise on some of the attributes that are good for hunting as this will primarily be a range rifle, per your OP. If and when you do go hunting, you'll be able to use your setup regardless and qill quickly determine what you would like to do differently for a hunting rig. In all likelihood (and depending on what kind of hunting you do and in what terrain) you'll end up with 2 rifles, one for the range and one for hunting.
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What he says. I would add that an FFP reticle doesn’t need very good turrets for 500M hunting. You should be holding over for all your shots. I have started holding over for almost all 22LR shots 200 and under (6.5mils) and it is the way to go.
 
emerson said:
What he says. I would add that an FFP reticle doesn’t need very good turrets for 500M hunting. You should be holding over for all your shots. I have started holding over for almost all 22LR shots 200 and under (6.5mils) and it is the way to go.
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I've hunted with a FFP scope for years now (Bushnell LRTSis, NF NX8 and currently a Vortex LHT 4.5-22) and what works for my use case is to walk around with my max point-blank range dialled on which pretty much means that if the prey is inside 275 (but usually way closer than that) it's just point and shoot. For shots past that I'll get a good range and dial on my elevation. Works for around here but everyone's setup is kinda different.
 
I'm definitely seeing this setup as a 80% range 20% hunting rifle, maybe even 90/10. Didn't know about Athlon scopes, I will look further into them.

Probably a 6-24 would be perfect for range and target shooting only. But the 3-18, 4-16 are looking like the most versatile "jack of all trades".

I tried the Arken EP5 5-25 and I was impressed. However the smallest twitch and I was losing the target at >20x. Next time I'll try with sandbags / shooting pads to help stabilize.
 
Why not a Savage? My 110 FCP McMillan is a great rifle! Savage get the same reviews pretty much all the time: great accuracy at a great price.
 
mv2 said:
I'm definitely seeing this setup as a 80% range 20% hunting rifle, maybe even 90/10. Didn't know about Athlon scopes, I will look further into them.

Probably a 6-24 would be perfect for range and target shooting only. But the 3-18, 4-16 are looking like the most versatile "jack of all trades".

I tried the Arken EP5 5-25 and I was impressed. However the smallest twitch and I was losing the target at >20x. Next time I'll try with sandbags / shooting pads to help stabilize.
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If you want a bit more magnification than a 4-16, check out the Athlon Helos BTR gen 2 4-20x50. It's a 30mm tube instead of a 34mm like the 6-24x56 Helos, and almost 1/2 lb lighter as well. I've bought a couple Athlon scopes from Jerry at Mystic precision, and really like them so far. An Argos gen 2 is a perfectly usable cheaper scope as well, but not quite as nice as the Helos. I've currently got a 6-24x56 Helos, and the next scope I buy will be either another 6-24 or the 4-20x50 Helos. I have a couple Argos as well, but prefer the locking turrets and 10mil per rotation turrets of the Helos.
Kristian
 
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CDF said:
Why not a Savage? My 110 FCP McMillan is a great rifle! Savage get the same reviews pretty much all the time: great accuracy at a great price.
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Been a Savage fan for a very long time... have competed with them at a very high level for a long time. Played with a number of factory rifles over the years and have gone from a solid fanboy to a critic advising caution.

The Savage of today has so many variants and QC is all over the map, each rifle has to be reviewed on its individual merits. The biggest issue plaguing them is weak ejection.... and that varies huge from rifle to rifle. BUT, if you have a rifle that is a PITA to eject, fixing it is not always easy (and yes, I have used kits, made my own kits, etc).

2nd is the firing pin system... at last count there were 3 possible options buried in the line up (maybe more but I gave up trying to figure it out). The older style work great... newer style, same? durable? replacement parts? And with the never ending change of what they call their lineup, there is no way to know what you are actually going to get.... as the product seems to change on the fly.

There are also trigger variants, action thread options, scope base variants, recoil lug variants/stock variants... thus inletting variants... and it seems they freely mix and match whatever they feel like. Very confusing and not always what the owner is expecting.

So if you have a Savage that functions as it should, has the better bits and parts, fantastic... if not, can be very frustrating.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Updated the shortlist based on comments and other discoveries:
- $600 Primary Arms SLx 3-18x50 Mil
- $650 Arken SH4 4-16x50 Mil
- $720 Arken EPL4 4-16x44 Mil
- $850 Athlon Helos BTR Gen2 4-20x50 Mil
- $1050 Primary Arms GLx 4-16x50 Mil
- $1100 Vortex Strike Eagle 3-18x44 Mil
- $1200 Primary Arms GLx 3-18x44 Mil
- $1400 Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50 Mil

The Athlon 4-20 looks like a winner for price/quality and a good high end zoom. Anyone have any hands-on experience with it?

The rifle shopping continues, Tikka T3x CTR is at the top of the list. Interestingly the CZ 600 alpha 308 is right up there as well - it's a lot cheaper but seems to have similar features like semi-heavy barrel. I found several T3x CTR owners ended up switching stocks & had to deal with $200 steel mag prices. Had a feel for both rifles, of course Tikka felt better but it's hard to say if it felt $600 better. The Savage 110 Tactical I saw some folks having feed issues it was a bit of a turn-off, plus what Jerry @ Mystic mentions above ^.
 
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mv2 said:
Updated the shortlist based on comments and other discoveries:
- $600 Primary Arms SLx 3-18x50 Mil
- $650 Arken SH4 4-16x50 Mil
- $720 Arken EPL4 4-16x44 Mil
- $850 Athlon Helos BTR Gen2 4-20x50 Mil
- $1050 Primary Arms GLx 4-16x50 Mil
- $1100 Vortex Strike Eagle 3-18x44 Mil
- $1200 Primary Arms GLx 3-18x44 Mil
- $1400 Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50 Mil

The Athlon 4-20 looks like a winner for price/quality and a good high end zoom. Anyone have any hands-on experience with it?

The rifle shopping continues, Tikka T3x CTR is at the top of the list. Interestingly the CZ 600 alpha 308 is right up there as well - it's a lot cheaper but seems to have similar features like semi-heavy barrel. I found several T3x CTR owners ended up switching stocks & had to deal with $200 steel mag prices. Had a feel for both rifles, of course Tikka felt better but it's hard to say if it felt $600 better. The Savage 110 Tactical I saw some folks having feed issues it was a bit of a turn-off, plus what Jerry @ Mystic mentions above ^.
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Tons of experience with the Helos BTR gen2 family. What would you like to know?

Been shooting the Helos scopes since they became a gen2. I can say, they punch WAAAAYYYY above their price point. My fave from athlon used to be the Ares ETR of which I still compete with 1 but now own far more helos btr g2's.

It is very hard to beat their value for both optics and function.

If I can help, pm or email. Can even offer a great bundle deal with a set of Burris XTR sig rings which are fantastic if you have the chance to really reach out.

Jerry
 
mv2 said:
Updated the shortlist based on comments and other discoveries:
- $600 Primary Arms SLx 3-18x50 Mil
- $650 Arken SH4 4-16x50 Mil
- $720 Arken EPL4 4-16x44 Mil
- $850 Athlon Helos BTR Gen2 4-20x50 Mil
- $1050 Primary Arms GLx 4-16x50 Mil
- $1100 Vortex Strike Eagle 3-18x44 Mil
- $1200 Primary Arms GLx 3-18x44 Mil
- $1400 Athlon Ares ETR 3-18x50 Mil

The Athlon 4-20 looks like a winner for price/quality and a good high end zoom. Anyone have any hands-on experience with it?
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I'm currently running the Arken EPL4 4-16 and the Athlon Helos 4-20 in your list. The Athlon is *way* better than the Arken. In Athlon, I also have the Argos and Ares and I would say the Ares is having a hard time justifying its higher cost compared to the Helos. I've also owned several Vortex (from DBT to Razor) and the Athlon to me is better image quality and reticle design than the Vortex (at similar price points).

One other thing to mention: my warranty experiences with Vortex, Athlon and Bushnell have been excellent. Above-expectation service and very fast turn-around. On the other hand, the Arken warranty centre I believe has just ghosted me in the last few weeks. Tried calling the phone number on the website and it's "unassigned". Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
 
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