Scope zeroing issues - is my receiver drilled wrong or barrel misaligned?

I posted some pictures in the original post. If there is a cant it its because of me holding my camera... taking a picture through a scope is harder than I thought.

The final picture is close to what I want but both elevation and windage have been pushed as far as I can at that point, and I had take a stepwise approach to do each in an alternating manner. If I push one to the max first, I can't turn the other one at all.

Do you guys think this should go to warranty?


Certainly not. You haven’t found what’s the problem yet. As Dan mentioned 2 posts above, it’s quite possible for the adjustments to bind at the extreme end of their travel.

Did you not say in the OP that the scope was ok on another rifle? Pretty sure you said 2 scopes gave similar results so I’d not think it’s a scope issue you’re having.
 
To quote from what you added on Post #1 - "so my goal is to have the reticle to be a bit higher than the laser point" - I think you have that backward - if you want to be sighted in very long way away, you would need the cross hairs to be BELOW the laser point at a short distance - if you believe that laser point accurately reflects where the bullets will go. I think that if you are looking through your scope against a laser dot on the wall, all the scope directions will be backwards - up is down, left is right - for where the bullet will go compared to where the reticle is pointing.

Is that true? Right now I'm shooting high even at 10, that would only go higher at 25 right? This is what I'm picturing, apologies for the poor illustration, and I'm going to assume ballistics aren't a factor at sub 25 yards and its all straight lines. Here at 10 yards, the red line impact (laser dot) would have to be lower than the reticle in order for them to converge further on right?
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Certainly not. You haven’t found what’s the problem yet. As Dan mentioned 2 posts above, it’s quite possible for the adjustments to bind at the extreme end of their travel.

Did you not say in the OP that the scope was ok on another rifle? Pretty sure you said 2 scopes gave similar results so I’d not think it’s a scope issue you’re having.

Yes I did throw another scope on that was already sighted, along with the rings that was on that scope, and the difference was similar, but different rings, different mount and more variables, so I'm not sure.
 
OP, you have to read what you posted carefully and you’ll see that the scope is not the problem.
This is what you posted;


Facts:
Put scope on another rifle and used a laser bore sight and it was easy to get the crosshair to line up with laser at 10 yards
Put scope back on bergara and had similar issues again, point of impact (of the laser) was high and right compared to reticle.
Put a vortex venom sighted on another rifle on the bergara and noticed that the point of impact (of the laser) was way high and right compared to the reticle. Was able to get it to zero but it was at the bottom of the elevation range. A good amount of adjusting windage to the left as well. The venom has higher adjustment range than the crossfire II
Tried both 0 and 20 MOA rails thinking maybe the rail could be the issue but doesn't seem like it, both experience the same problem.
 
Is that true? Right now I'm shooting high even at 10, that would only go higher at 25 right? This is what I'm picturing, apologies for the poor illustration, and I'm going to assume ballistics aren't a factor at sub 25 yards and its all straight lines. Here at 10 yards, the red line impact (laser dot) would have to be lower than the reticle in order for them to converge further on right?
MsYD9ON.png




Yes I did throw another scope on that was already sighted, along with the rings that was on that scope, and the difference was similar, but different rings, different mount and more variables, so I'm not sure.

Bullets drop.
 
OP, you have to read what you posted carefully and you’ll see that the scope is not the problem.
This is what you posted;

Yes I realize this, but also the other rifle had a 0 MOA mount, where as this one had a 20 MOA picatinny rail when I was testing it yesterday. The scope only has a 60 moa adjustment range so I think I used up most of the elevation trying to account for that and then couldn't move the windage at all. This was before I realized that it can bind. Today I was testing with the 0 MOA mount on the bergara and had more room to move.

I'm just trying to approach this from a couple of directions. Maybe I'll get those zee rings as suggested to try to account for the windage. But at the same time, its normal for the scope turrets to bind at extremes? I always thought the controls going from min/max, up down left right would form a box, is it more of a circle instead and that is normal behavior?

Bullets drop.
I'm just trying to sight a 22lr at 25 yards at the range, and 10 yards at home, I think its safe to assume no drop at 25 yards
 
You are way to close to your target to get any useable result. I am not sure what it means when you say that it works with another scope but I tell you that anything less than 25 yards is not useable. Why don't you go to the range, take out the bolt and tell us what you see when looking down the barrel and through your scope? Those laser bore sighter are 50 % garbage too.
 
You are way to close to your target to get any useable result. I am not sure what it means when you say that it works with another scope but I tell you that anything less than 25 yards is not useable. Why don't you go to the range, take out the bolt and tell us what you see when looking down the barrel and through your scope? Those laser bore sighter are 50 % garbage too.

Yea I spent like an hour at the range yesterday trying to even find where my impact is at 25 yards, so I figure if I can't get it to line up at 10 yards, what hope do I have at longer ranges?
 
... I am not sure what it means when you say that it works with another scope but I tell you that anything less than 25 yards is not useable. Why don't you go to the range, take out the bolt and tell us what you see when looking down the barrel and through your scope? Those laser bore sighter are 50 % garbage too.

He put a different scope on the same mount, had the same problem (post #22). But yeah, laser bore sighters can be wonky. That could be the entirety of the problem. He can pull the bolt at home and confirm bore alignment - Even just looking down the hall will get you on paper.


Yea I spent like an hour at the range yesterday trying to even find where my impact is at 25 yards, so I figure if I can't get it to line up at 10 yards, what hope do I have at longer ranges?

You should not have to approach your max windage adjustment in order to get centered, regardless of the distance.

From the way you've described everything, it makes me think there is something wrong with the laser, or your mount. Or both.

Can you test the laser in another firearm? Can you confirm it's the right mount for that receiver?
 
I posted some pictures in the original post. If there is a cant it its because of me holding my camera... taking a picture through a scope is harder than I thought.

The final picture is close to what I want but both elevation and windage have been pushed as far as I can at that point, and I had take a stepwise approach to do each in an alternating manner. If I push one to the max first, I can't turn the other one at all.

Do you guys think this should go to warranty?

I think you should take it all and leave it with a gunsmith to sort out. Shouldn't take him longer than 30 minutes to inspect and diagnose... if the drilling and tapping is off, the mounts wrong, etc.
 
Yea I spent like an hour at the range yesterday trying to even find where my impact is at 25 yards, so I figure if I can't get it to line up at 10 yards, what hope do I have at longer ranges?

Watch some youtube videos. You don't fire. Clear the action, take out magazine, take out bolt. Put your rifle in a gun vise (hope you have one). Look through the back of the bolt through the barrel, line up at 25 or 50 yards. Hold rifle steady, as mentioned a gun vise is best. Line your scope up with the target, done.

Can also be done with semis, just take off more stuff.
 
Watch some youtube videos. You don't fire. Clear the action, take out magazine, take out bolt. Put your rifle in a gun vise (hope you have one). Look through the back of the bolt through the barrel, line up at 25 or 50 yards. Hold rifle steady, as mentioned a gun vise is best. Line your scope up with the target, done.

Can also be done with semis, just take off more stuff.

This is how I sight in all new scopes. At 100 yards.
Works every time.
 
I think I have a conclusion from all this.
I did do the boresight as people have suggested, and found that the laser pointed a bit higher than the boresight would suggest, so I was able to gain some elevation back and thus gain more rotation in the windage.
I think thats whats most confusing about all this, because this is the only scope (for me) where its been relevant that max elevation change depends on your windage adjustment and vice versa. So i have no actual idea if I'm nearing the end of elevation or windage because they're relative to each other. I haven't found myself in this situation with other scopes because I haven't needed to go to the extremes.

The scope has 50 MOA of adjustment total, and its 15 MOA per rotation Right now my windage is about 0.5 rotations from the end, so pretty heavily to one side.

I think overall this has been an issue of 2 problems, one is my mount is probably slightly pointing one direction, and two, I believe the scope itself isn't very well "centered" when its at the mechanical zero. I did put it on another rifle again and though it was better, the point of impact is still to the right of the point of aim. However, due to this difference, the binding effect at the extremes of adjustment didn't come into play on the other rifle.
Add that to the laser end point being slightly higher than boresight, starting out with a 20 MOA rail, and my confusion with the elevation/windage binding, resulted in my confusion overall.


Here's something I found on another form about the geometries involved. Note the last sentence. I think due to the above 2 reasons I found myself in such a situation. I had no idea that scopes worked that way. I thought you'd be able to "trace a square" along the maximum adjustment range with your reticle by using your elevation and windage turrets, but seems to be incorrect. A circle can move circularly inside another circle, but cannot trace a square larger than the circle.

Here is the scoop guys. The reason this happens is because a scopes erector tube is round and it sits in a round tube. This is perfectly normal and happens in just about every scope out there that a tactical long range shooter including pretty much all the scopes commonly discussed on this forum. The only way to stop this from happening is to severely impede the overall travel of the scope.

In the end it just comes down to basic geometry. A circle(erector tube with size being around .800") in-cased in a larger circle(scope tube with I.D. about 1.000") can move freely inside that circle. In order for the smaller circle(erector tube) to move the shape of a square it would need to be restricted. Which this is possible to do ,but in the process you would give up a large amount of real estate in the larger circle(scope tube) and end up not having the amount of elevation that we shooters demand. Just picture a square(proportional to smaller circle) inside the larger circle(scope tube) and you will see just how much you will give up.


As I stated earlier this is very common and the reason that it generally is never brought up is- very seldom do we find our selves dialing even remotely close to the amount of windage travel that is available in most scopes.

So when I first initially tried to sight this, due to the above reasons, I pretty much went straight to the grey colored region and found my elevation limited. Where as usually I'd be making adjustments in the green box, where you can move freely.
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Thank you potashminer for pointing this out, I would've never thought to look into this otherwise.
I do not know how modern scopes are made, but think like the scope body is a larger diameter tube and the reticle is in a smaller diameter tube, inside the big one. A gimble or similar at the front of small diameter tube and the turrets and bias spring acting near the rear end of the small tube. When at mechanical dead centre with small tube - is much left to right or up and down adjustment available. Now force the small tube against top or bottom of the big diameter tube - or against left or right - by "maxing out" turret adjustments - can not move at right angles, or can not move very far, because the two tubes are hitting (or close to hitting) to each other.
 
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At the range this morning. Somehow the adjustments reset to high and right again... I matched the windage but wasn't able to move elevation anymore. Also could not turn the magnification at all.

At 50 yards the first set of shots were center and 1.5 inches higher than point of aim.
Then I reloaded and took another set of shots and they were in a nice group 3 inches higher than point of aim, no adjustment in between.

I think it's time to go to warranty
 
At the range this morning. Somehow the adjustments reset to high and right again... I matched the windage but wasn't able to move elevation anymore. Also could not turn the magnification at all.
At 50 yards the first set of shots were center and 1.5 inches higher than point of aim.
Then I reloaded and took another set of shots and they were in a nice group 3 inches higher than point of aim, no adjustment in between.
I think it's time to go to warranty

sounds like it's F'd...

Is the scope brand new? I had a funny issue once with a used scope that I could just barely zero with the windage cranked to one side. Whoever I had bought it off had actually 'zero stopped' the windage! LOL, wtf!!!
 
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I’ve had a scope fail before, I sighted it in at 50y and it would shift poi with each shot. First shot was poa/poi second was 2” high and to the right, next shot was back to original poa/poi. It did this with each shot, alternating between the two poi. Literally looked like two separate groups a few inches appart. At 50y it wasn’t bad but once I moved out to 100y it was even worse.

The one time I’ve run out of windage it ended up being the mounting holes on my receiver we’re a bit off, was able to adjust the front hole of the rail to get the room to bring things back into alignment, was pretty obvious once I pulled off the 20moa rail and got a straight edge out. I had a good known scope, rings and was bore sighting by looking through the barrel at a 100y ranged reference point from a solid rest. I centered the turrets, checked torque on my rail and rings. Re attached rings and re torqued nothing changed, couldn’t find any windage adjustable rings anywhere at the time so I took a slight bit off the rail screw hole.

If I left the furthest forward rail screw loose or off I had the room to align the rail, with the forward 4th screw tight it pulled it out of alignment. When I opened the hole I still had lots of shoulder in the mounting hole for the screw head contact, plus I had plenty of windage adjustment in the scope now. As well as being relatively centered in the windage dial, once I come across some windage adjustable rings I’ll swap out but problem solved for now. Rifle was sighted in and shoots great.
 
For sure can have scope "die" or "break" - in my case was an elderly Bushnell Banner 2 1/2 power on a Parker Hale 303 British - was firing several shot groups at about 100 yards (?) to walk the holes towards the aiming spot - then groups started moving opposite way that I had adjusted - I did not adjust turrets any more - the holes just kept walking their way off to the right on the target, until completely off the paper - not in sequence - would go way right for one shot, then left of that one for a few, then further right, and so on. I never investigated further - is exactly how I left it in the cabinet, here - not a rifle that I really wanted to use, so have not "got around" to replacing that scope and trying again.
 
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