Seating bullets too deep? (405 grain cast for 45-70)

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muirsy

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Hey guys, super new to reloading and had a couple questions. Here's a brief summary first;

- Marlin 1895 SBL
- Starline brass, once fired in my gun (HSM bear load)
- 405 grain cast bullets from bullet barn (single lube groove)
- Lee Classic loader (cheap and easy to use for a newb)
- IMR 3031

My questions;

1. The first couple bullets I loaded were seated a little lower than the factory round I was using as a 'guide' - ie. there was less bullet exposed on my round (not much, a couple milimeteres). I adjusted the die accordingly and now they match up - and are also to spec according to the diagram included in the Lee kit.

Are those first few rounds safe to use? Paranoid the pressure might be too high and I'll blow my gun apart haha.

2. The classic loader doesn't come with anything to flare the case necks - which isn't a big deal. Many of the bullets I seated were 'scraped' by the edge of the case which resulted in a little ring of lead that just crumbled off - presumably not a big deal because they were going in without any real struggle.

Is this normal with lead bullets? And if not, should I flare the neck a little?


Thanks a lot guys, hope someone can put my mind to ease so I can load the rest of these things!

J
 
yomomma said:
If you are worried about the bullets being deep, pull them. You do have a bullet puller? No reloader should be without one.
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No I don't have one - and to be honest I don't plan on it any time soon. For the 3 rounds that I thought might be too low - just wanted to know if it's a big deal.
 
I'm hardly a great expert on ballistics and the .45-70 but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Are they still crimped in the cannelure? If the mouth isn't engaging the groove, it wouldn't expand to release the bullet, which I would think should help keep initial pressures down slightly. Is your load considered a milder one or have you stoked it up?

I think it was Paul Matthews who pointed out that in a straight walled case, as soon as the bullet has travelled the length of the case (in yours 2.1") the volume of the "burning chamber" has doubled which would work toward keeping pressures lower. In a bottle neck it would have to travel considerably further so pressures can keep building at a higher rate for longer. I don't recall which one of his books that was in; I recommend "Forty Years With The .45-70" for a good read.

All of my shooting that round has been BP loads in my Trapdoor. Those are HARD bullets in my experience. I have a recovered one that tumbled on impact and hit a few different spots on it. There's so little deformation, I almost think I could run it through a sizing die and refire. Accuracy wouldn't exist but the point is that there's remarkably little deformation since it's so hard. So, if you're looking at those for a hunting bullet, no expansion to speak of but probably penetration up the wazoo.

For quick and dirty bullet puller for a rimmed case you you can drill a hole through a piece of wood, find a way to secure the round in the hole (maybe another wood piece secured to sandwich the base between them) and rap away on the edge of a bucket. A decent commercial puller is much more comforting though.
 
yonderin said:
I'm hardly a great expert on ballistics and the .45-70 but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Are they still crimped in the cannelure? If the mouth isn't engaging the groove, it wouldn't expand to release the bullet, which I would think should help keep initial pressures down slightly. Is your load considered a milder one or have you stoked it up?
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Those first few rounds are crimped right on the edge of the cannelure/crimp groove - not as well as the others of course.

As for loads I've got the lee dipper and their's are not loaded super hot.

Any ideas on the lead scraping? Pretty normal for cast bullets or should I flare the neck a little?

Thanks for the reply!
 
muirsy said:
Any ideas on the lead scraping? Pretty normal for cast bullets or should I flare the neck a little?
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Yes, unless you flare the case necks, it is common for a bit of lead to scrape off when seating cast lead bullets. Lee makes a Universal Case Expanding Die that will flare .22 thru .45 cal. Lyman makes a Two-Step Neck-Expanding "M" die, which makes it much easier to start a cast bullet in the case before seating (M dies are calibre specific). Deburring/chamfering your cases also helps.

P.S. Sorry, I just noticed that you are using a Classic Loader . . . these dies won't help you without a press.
 
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Otto V said:
Yes, unless you flare the case necks, it is common for a bit of lead to scrape off when seating cast lead bullets. Lee makes a Universal Case Expanding Die that will flare .22 thru .45 cal. Lyman makes a Two-Step Neck-Expanding "M" die, which makes it much easier to start a cast bullet in the case before seating (M dies are calibre specific). Deburring/chamfering your cases also helps.

P.S. Sorry, I just noticed that you are using a Classic Loader . . . these dies won't help you without a press.
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Thanks for the reply!

I'm ok with a little scraping - I just wasn't sure if it was a "no-no" or made the round unsafe. If it's a safety thing I'll address it - if it's not then I'm ok with it
 
The lead scraped off is very common with lead bullets. It's perfectly safe but could degrade accuracy a little. Less than you can notice in most cases.

Only issue might be if it's enough that it's pushed up around the neck and the shell won't chamber in which case you carve the offending lead down with pocket knife and shoot it so you can try again. That one won't be very accurate at all. Lol.

A neck chafing tool will help but flaring helps more. I'm surprised they didn't have a way to do that with the hand tools.
 
I'd suggest you just shoot the short rounds ( not a safety issue as described) and flare the neck before reloading more lead bullets. You don't need a official neck flaring tool, pretty much any home made tapered punch will do the trick with a couple light taps of a hammer. Graduate to a real neck flaring die like Lee makes if that method is too slow or imprecise for you.
 
A little more too it than just degraded accuracy with the shaved boolits. Not an "unsafe issue " to use a few of them as-is. A shaved boolit is the same as using an "undersize" lead projectile, the shaved area provides a blow-by "gas escape" channel that will promote barrel leading. Eventually ,with a lot of shaved boolits down a bore the leading may become enough to act as somewhat of a bore restriction that may, in extreme instances, increase pressures.

Usually a bit of "hard to remove" barrel leading is all that happens from the above but I have seen a couple of the "extreme' variety as well. One fellow brought his .357 Mag Super BH to me one time complaining of the "extremely high recoil" his gun had strangely developed...on look down the bore revealed lead had restricted the bore opening down to less than .308 (I know as I tried dropping a 308 bullet thru the bore). Every round of ammo he had showed signs of shaving. I don't consider flaring a "good idea", I consider it "imperative".
 
Well, since you are loading with the Classic Lee Loader, which I have used in various calibers, you are probably also using the plastic powder dipper that comes with the kit.

That being the case, the listing of loads that came with the kit probably indicates that the dipper drops around 36 grains of the IMR-3031 that you are using. This would be a typical factory-comparable (or slightly under) load that would be safe in even 1873 Springfield Trapdoors.

If this is the case (or close) then these slightly shorter rounds would be perfectly safe to shoot in your 1895 Marlin, even if the pressures were increased a bit by the slightly decreased internal air space in the case.

Typically, correctly loaded rounds such as these for the 405 grain lead bullet would produce only 14000 or 15000 CUP in your rifle as chamber pressure.
On the other hand, the +P loads in my Lyman reloading manual for the 1895 Marlin SPECIFICALLY, average around 25000 CUP.
So, you have lots of strength in the 1895 action to protect you.

You should indeed flare the neck a little in order to be able to start the bullets about 1.5 mm or so to prevent lead shaving, which will affect accuracy. For your purposes you could improvise a tool from a tapered punch or some smooth and hard found object that is rounded and tapered on the end, which you could then press and turn into the cases to give them a slight flare (or tap with a mallet).

Also, since you are using these cartridges in a lever action, you should ensure that the case mouths are crimped into the crimping groove on the bullet. This ensures that the bullets stay put under recoil while they are stacked inside the tubular magazine, and do not begin to telescope into the cases after each successive shot. Your Lee Loader should have provision to do this if properly adjusted.

If you have not done so, you should at the very least buy a Lee handheld primer pocket cleaning tool and a Lee handheld case mouth chamfering tool. Both are quite cheap and are made of hardened steel and last a long time. The chamfering tool cleans up the edges of the case mouth and funnels it very slightly, which also helps prevent lead shaving.

Finally, a Lee handheld case trimmer is also cheap and will be needed over time to reduce the length of your cases as they stretch with each firing.
These consist of a little shell holder and anvil that screws into it, a hardened steel cutter that can be used with many cartridges, and a specific pilot with a pin in the end for each different cartridge.

These extra tools will all be used if you transition to a loading press later on anyway.
 
You shouldn't let the bullets be scraped on loading. It is easy to flare the neck a bit with some improvised tool. Anything that is round and pointed that will go into the mouth of the case a bit, held in your hands while you give it a couple twirls, will do it.
 
Depends on your load. If you are close to max powder load then it would be best to pull the bullets. If you are well below the max then it should be fine.

The shaved bullet will shoot OK but it's not conducive to good accuracy. You can make your own flaring tool by filing a round end on a bolt or rod and tapping it gently into the neck.. You need to experiment and likely flare a tiny bit (hardly enough to notice with the naked eye) or it won't fit in your loader. Chamfering will help, too.
 
I use a Long stepped down socket to flare 45-70 cast bullets which can be 1-3 thousand'ths of an inch bigger than a jacketed bullet. This is why there isn't a flaring tool included with the classic loader. Lee should include it, as many of us that use cast bullets sure could use it!

H4831 is right on, very little is needed to put on a slight flare!
 
In case anyone is wondering, an appropriately sized socket and a couple taps with a hammer works incredible well for flaring - no more leading.

Thanks for everyone's replies
 
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