Sellier and Bellot .223

22ivan

22ivan

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Just ordered some of this from one of the site sponsors and was wondering if anyone had any opinions about this brand.

I have been using the PMC 55gr ammo lately with some success and I think it is a quality product. I have also been following some talk on other boards disputing that PMC is M193 spec and shows it consistently chronoed 200-300 fps bellow 193 spec. I'm not too worried about this and will continue to use the PMC as it is good quality even if it is showing commercial velocities. After all I'm only shooting paper. But I would like to try something a bit hotter just for kicks. The S & B appears to look more like M193 at least from their website and the stats for the commercial .223 appear to be identical to what they have posted for their 5.56 M193- any thoughts?

http://ww w.sellier-bellot.cz/rifle-ammunition-detail.php?ammunition=12&product=474

http://ww w.sellier-bellot.cz/law-enforcement-detail.php?ammunition=21&product=331
 
Well...

You're right... the listed speed specs are the same for the S&B loads you've listed. The M193 spec...

U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA). Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA.
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Both of the S&B loads are listed at 1006 m/s with is 3,320 f/s...

The only way to know for sure is to shoot some over the chrono...

There's an interesting point to consider here however... As we all know, or should know anyway... discharging 5.56 ammunition in a rifle chambered for SAAMI spec .223 ammunition is an unsafe practice... and is listed as such on the SAAMI web site... Given this fact, S&B leave themselves open to potential claim should someone experience a breakage of parts or an injury to their person while discharging ammunition loaded to M193, but packaged and sold under the .223 designation in a rifle chambered only for .223...

Having said all of this... the PMC K100 / M855 stuff being sold is PACKAGED AND MARKED as such leaving the shooter with no question as to the load their employing.

If you want to shoot something hotter than the PMC .223 round, it looks like S&B would do it, as would the hotter military spec PMC K100 / M855... just don't take the PMC M855 to your local indoor range due to the steel penetrator embedded in the projectile...
 
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Kenjuudo thanks for your response. I bought a couple of cases of the K100 back when the price was $529. This is indeed great stuff-I've decided to use what I have left sparingly and maybe when I get a chance to shoot at greater distances than are offered at my club. Last summer I got the chance to do some shooting at 600 yds with one of the provincial rifle associations it was great fun. It seems like a bit of a waste to pop it off at 100 yds. This S and B stuff like the PMC 193 looks like a good economical alternative.

kenjuudo said:
There's an interesting point to consider here however... As we all know, or should know anyway... discharging 5.56 ammunition in a rifle chambered for SAAMI spec .223 ammunition is an unsafe practice... and is listed as such on the SAAMI web site... Given this fact, S&B leave themselves open to potential claim should someone experience a breakage of parts or an injury to their person while discharging ammunition loaded to M193, but packaged and sold under the .223 designation in a rifle chambered only for .223...

Having said all of this... the PMC K100 / M855 stuff being sold is PACKAGED AND MARKED as such leaving the shooter with no question as to the load their employing.
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I find this point interesting in regard to the RUAG 63gr Swiss Ordnance carried by TSE- the box is marked 5.56 but it is headstamped .223
Just to be clear I'm not complaining, I have a good quantity of this stuff as well- it is exceptional ammo I'm just responding to your statement.
 
22ivan said:
[...snip...]

I find this point interesting in regard to the RUAG 63gr Swiss Ordnance carried by TSE- the box is marked 5.56 but it is headstamped .223
Just to be clear I'm not complaining, I have a good quantity of this stuff as well- it is exceptional ammo I'm just responding to your statement.
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I can't speak for the RUAg stuff as I have no experience with it... what I can say is that there are a number of circumstances where the headstamp doesn't necessarily jive with the packaging. For example when a given manufacturer makes several different loads (recipes) but uses the same cases for both... again, I can't speak for this load in particular, but in the grand scheme of things it's better that the 5.56 be stamped .223 than the other way around...

Another example of headstamp oddity is the fact that a lot of Federal XM193 is stamped with the NATO cross... and M193 is NOT NATO spec ammunition... so go figure...

As for the PMC Bronze .223 being M193 spec... well, as you pointed out, there are a lot of guys in other places with a lot of chrono data to say that it's simply not... If it is, and is being sold in .223 packaging, that's where the potential for problems starts...
 
Strange enough, all the S&B I see sold in the US gunshows I visit, seem to have a little white square in the corner of the box where it claims "M193" specs. The case I bought through a CGN sponsor all else seems identical less the white box claiming M193 specs.

Best way to check would be a closer look at the sealing of the round into the casing. I expect the cases sold in Canada would in all respects be M193 spec too. Anyway, no complaints so far.
 
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lawn gnome said:
Strange enough, all the S&B I see sold in the US gunshows I visit, seem to have a little white square in the corner of the box where it claims "M193" specs. The case I bought through a CGN sponsor all else seems identical less the white box claiming M193 specs.

Best way to check would be a closer look at the sealing of the round into the casing. I expect the cases sold in Canada would in all respects be M193 spec too. Anyway, no complaints so far.
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I,ve done a little searching around and have come up with a theory. I believe that what is being sold in the U.S. with the little white box stating M193 specs is indeed the 5.56 round that S & B has listed in the law enforcement products. Although I haven't received my order yet, I'm assuming that what I will be getting is the commercial .223 round. Although both products are loaded to the same pressure/velocity I think the major difference is in the projectile- the 5.56 has the M193 spec thin copper/zn casing with cannelure that will fragment and the commercial has the mild steel copper plated jacket that does not. I'm also not sure if the primer and case mouth are sealed the same way on the commercial round. I will have to wait till my order arrives. Looking back at the PMC 55gr, I believe that in all respects of its construction- projectile, sealed primer and case mouth and annealing that it is indeed M193 spec only that it is loaded to SAAMI spec pressure/velocity.
 
I haven't used S&B in .223 but I have in .303, and I have to say, it's probably the best ammo for the price out there. I've fed it to all my .303's and they all seem to like it. From what I've read, and found out with my .303 ammo, S&B loads their commercial offerings a little bit hotter than household U.S. brands like Remington or Winchester.

I haven't reloaded the brass yet, but I've heard both good and bad, so your mileage may vary.

Let us know how it works for you!
 
22ivan said:
[...snip...]

the PMC 55gr, I believe that in all respects of its construction- projectile, sealed primer and case mouth and annealing that it is indeed M193 spec only that it is loaded to SAAMI spec pressure/velocity.
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So the PMC 55gr stuff is M193ish...??? Change the velocity of a given projectile and you change its ballistic and terminal performance. That's why the M193 spec, specifies that velocity must fall within a fairly narrow range. I get what you're saying but in order for a duck to be a duck it has to look, walk and talk like one.

U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps... blah blah blah...
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A round can't be two specs at once. The PMC might have an M193 spec projectile and be crimped and sealed, but it doesn't meet the M193 spec for velocity, so it isn't M193.

kc7txm @ ar15.com... said:
I have chrono data, but it's not good:

Firearm: Bushmaster 20" AR15A3
Ammo: PMC 223A 55gr FMJ
Temp: 81.7 °F
Humidity: 51 %
Pressure: 29.78 inHg
Altitude: 1490 ft ASL
Date: 7/20/2007

1 3019 fps
2 3060 fps
3 3080 fps
4 3069 fps
5 2992 fps
6 3044 fps
7 2998 fps
8 3014 fps
9 3051 fps
10 2966 fps

Avg 3029.30 fps
ES 114 fps
SD 35.35


Firearm: Bushmaster 16" AR15A2
Ammo: PMC 223A 55gr FMJ
Temp: 83.8 °F
Humidity: 51 %
Pressure: 29.78 inHg
Altitude: 1490 ft ASL
Date: 7/20/2007

1 2864 fps
2 2856 fps
3 2790 fps
4 2909 fps
5 2767 fps
6 2886 fps
7 2834 fps
8 2833 fps
9 2762 fps
10 2848 fps

Avg 2834.90 fps
ES 147 fps
SD 46.38

Firearm: Bushmaster 11.5" AR pistol
Ammo: PMC 223A 55gr FMJ
Temp: 83.8 °F
Humidity: 51 %
Pressure: 29.78 inHg
Altitude: 1490 ft ASL
Date: 7/20/2007

1 2644 fps
2 2547 fps
3 2551 fps
4 2612 fps
5 2553 fps
6 2537 fps
7 2490 fps
8 2506 fps
9 2549 fps
10 2575 fps

Avg 2556.40 fps
ES 154 fps
SD 43.15


Velocity is slow (it's .223 Remington not 5.56), accuracy was sub-wolf quality and looking at the extreme spread and standard deviation you can see why. Wolf (FMJ, HP, black box and MC all 55gr though) average 10% better standard deviations and 33% less extreme spread. Most people do not consider Wolf that good of ammo either. If you can get it cheap I'd shoot it, otherwise Wolf is (*shock*) a more accurate and less expensive buy.
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kennjudo- you are correct,it is not M193 spec. I have also seen the data you quoted on ARFcom. What I was trying to say was that it is manufactured by PMC in the same way using the same components (minus the charge) as 193. This is probably why some of the dealers selling it have been promoting it as 193.
 
It feeds, fires and ejects fine in my mini-14 and 7615 pump. accuracy on par with any other 55 fmj's that I shoot. If you want match ammo--buy match ammo--this is plinking ammo.

44Bore
 
22ivan said:
kennjudo- you are correct,it is not M193 spec. I have also seen the data you quoted on ARFcom. What I was trying to say was that it is manufactured by PMC in the same way using the same components (minus the charge) as 193. This is probably why some of the dealers selling it have been promoting it as 193.
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That's my understanding of PMC 55gr. ammo too from what I've learned through lots of internet research and my own test firing. It is not loaded to M193 velocity specs.
 
22ivan said:
kennjudo- you are correct,it is not M193 spec. I have also seen the data you quoted on ARFcom. What I was trying to say was that it is manufactured by PMC in the same way using the same components (minus the charge) as 193. This is probably why some of the dealers selling it have been promoting it as 193.
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I'm with ya'... and I took your post to mean just that... we've been on the same page since page one of this thread... :) It just bugs me that it's promoted as M193, that's all...
 
Just got off the phone with Frontier Firearms & order up a case of 1000. Got a mil spec M-15 that I have put together myself so I will give you a range report once I get it. They said some time next week. Although with prices around .50 cents a round don't think I will be buying any more. I think it's time to pay my friend a vist. I think you might know his name...
First name is "Dillion" and I believe his last name is "Press"!
 
My order arrived today. This is definitely not the same product they are selling in the U.S. as it does not have the big red dot of sealant on the primer. I popped one open and the case mouth also does not appear to have any sealant but the bullet is nicely seated and firmly placed. Went off to the range and fired a couple of boxes- made a ragged hole at 50yds (I was sighting in a new AR). I don't have a chrono but going by the recoil and report it seems to have some oomph to it. Overall it seems to be a decent product for the price.
 
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