SELLING GUN STUFF AT AUCTION

Cow Town Bill

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I'm posting this discussion under Shotguns as much of the stuff that I'm downsizing is shotgun related.
I've been selling a lot of my stuff at auction. I have sold things on EE but it is often easier for me to use an auctioneer. I only do one gun show a year---sometimes I do well and sometimes not so good. However, at auction the vast majority of my items sell---sometimes the selling price is favourable, sometimes not so good but overall it has been expedient to my downsizing. If an item doesn't sell the items normally sell at the next auction.
I just had an in interesting, although somewhat frustrating, discussion with an auctioneer. The issue was regarding bidding, and possibly buying, my own items when they could sell for a very low price eg say 10% of fair market value. I was told that under no circumstance could I buy back my own items as it in considered to be unethical. I was upset with this response---what does it matter who buys the item---the auctioneer still gets paid their commission so why do they care whose pocket the money comes from. Again I was told no way, its unethical.
This discussion brought to mind a few other issues with auctions. Most auctioneers don't like reserves---the difficulty is establishing a fair reserve----one that prevents items being low-balled but at the same time a reasonable starting price for both the seller and the auctioneer. This practice is common at the high end US auctions but uncommon here in Canada.
I have been told, but can't verify, that some auctioneers buy items at their own auction for their own personal use. My thoughts are that this practice is questionable. Why should the auctioneer buy items at his own auction but not allow the seller to buy back his own items?
I'm asking fellow CGN people to make there own comments on the issues I have raised. And, perhaps your own experiences, good and bad with auctioneers. Perhaps, auctioneers would be interested in responding as well.
Bill
 
It is blatantly, over-the-top unethical for someone to bid on their own items at auction, for the reason that every bid drives up the price. Even if, in your own mind, the purpose is to keep an item from selling for way under value, the reality is that a legitimate bidder has to pay a higher price than real market demand at that auction dictates. Grossly unethical.

An auctioneer bidding at his own sale, on the other hand, is just another customer bidding in the sale, providing he recuses himself from running the actual bidding on that item. Any appearance that an auctioneer just happened to miss a higher bid at the last second would be intolerable, so best he not be involved in spotting the bids or making the calls.
 
It is blatantly, over-the-top unethical for someone to bid on their own items at auction, for the reason that every bid drives up the price. Even if, in your own mind, the purpose is to keep an item from selling for way under value, the reality is that a legitimate bidder has to pay a higher price than real market demand at that auction dictates. Grossly unethical.

An auctioneer bidding at his own sale, on the other hand, is just another customer bidding in the sale, providing he recuses himself from running the actual bidding on that item. Any appearance that an auctioneer just happened to miss a higher bid at the last second would be intolerable, so best he not be involved in spotting the bids or making the calls.

Well said.

While i certainly understand the benefits of auctions the combination of fees for both me and the buyer plus the inability to control the final price at all means I have avoided them to date. I would much rather just put a sharp price on the items and sell it on the EE. Which I find works very well.

Of the dozen or so guns I have sold on the EE over the years, none has taken longer than a week and most within 48 hrs. I believe it's because I spend a bit of time figuring out what fair market actually is, then I price it sharply against fair market. I'm not interested in a long drawn out affair trying to get "my" price. It;s not my price......it's the market. And once I make the rare decision to sell a gun, I want it sold. Before i change my mind. LOL

The two guns I have sold elsewhere, one I let go to VictoryXC (Patrick) for far less than I should have because he pestered me non stop about the gun for several years. 😂 The other was a very unique gun that had modest appeal for many but very valued by a very few, very particular collectors. I happened to know someone who knew a suitable collector and he brokered the deal. I ended up getting way more than I likely would have in any other sale circumstance.
 
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Just a personal opinion, but I think sellers should be able to specify reserve prices. I can see why auction houses might oppose this, as it would drive away a number of tire-kickers. With a reasonable reserve, the seller has an idea of what he/she might get as a minimum, and the auction house will certainly try to push above it. If it doesn't sell, it can be re-listed, and maybe adjusted. But selling way below value because of how an item is listed or when the sale takes place, is not the best advertising for auctions, as far as sellers are concerned. And without sellers, there aren't any auctions.

I have bought items at auction with and without reserves. The reserve changed the starting point, but it didn't deter me as a bidder.

I can sort of see the argument against self-bidding as a way to stop sellers from benefiting from artificially raised prices. It also carries a risk to the seller, who might win a bidding war in which they intended to lose. As to the auction house, doesn't it win either way? Maybe I don't have enough information on this to have a firm opinion.

For antiques, which is my main interest, I wish auction houses had better descriptions and provided more pertinent information. Instead, they often sell high-end items with the same inattention to detail as selling a worn-out Cooey.
 
Shill bidding - the seller or his agent artificially increasing the price of an item that they offer for auction sale. Every legitimate auctioneer has rules against shill bidding. Auctioneers pulling bids out of the air or bidding and buying for themselves is equalled unethical, but not unheard of.
"Pump and dump" is the equivalent action in the securities market. This action is treated as a criminal offense.
 
Most auctioneers are the last people who should be deciding what is ethical and what is not. As for an auctioneer buying from his own site and then turning around and saying you can't, well thats speaking out of both sides if his mouth. It's actually worse for the auctioneer to be buying from his own site. Bid suppression, poor or inadequate description , poor pictures and all work in his favour.
Bottom line is an auctioneer cant stop you from having your buddy open and account and bid on your items that aren't getting bid traction,possibly because the auctioneer wants that item and again is doing unethical things.
And I am only saying this when the bids are horribly low.
I didn't consider the unethical practice of bidding things up.
 
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Just a personal opinion, but I think sellers should be able to specify reserve prices. I can see why auction houses might oppose this, as it would drive away a number of tire-kickers. With a reasonable reserve, the seller has an idea of what he/she might get as a minimum, and the auction house will certainly try to push above it. If it doesn't sell, it can be re-listed, and maybe adjusted.

I can't help but feel like the auction house would want to charge you a fee for that? If it doesn't sell they get nothing despite putting in the effort to list the item and entertain bids after all.
 
I can't help but feel like the auction house would want to charge you a fee for that? If it doesn't sell they get nothing despite putting in the effort to list the item and entertain bids after all.
They make a ton on the auctions. Dont worry about their profit margins. There should be no reason not to allow reserve bids. I would think they should only be allowed on certain higher priced items. I.e not for a regular garand or Enfield. But If they are sniper versions, I totally see why a reserve is good to have for both the auctioneer and the seller. Seller doesn't get screwed with a low bid and it protects the auctioneer from people who are fearful that their $6000 to $10,000 item might sell for $1500 and hence not bring it to auction.
If anyone thinks that won't happen, there are plenty of examples out there.
 
If you are trying to buy your items how does anyone know you are just trying to bid up your own items? It destroys the concept of fair bidding for the buyer. If I'm trying to buy something from an auction and I suspect shill bidding I will no longer bid cause I know it is no longer fair to me as a buyer. Therefore it destroys confidence in the auctioneer as a buyer. Auctioneers must protect their reputation and keep the auction fair in order for their business to be successful, or else people will go somewhere else to buy. I've been to a LOT of auctions and the quality and integrity of the auctioneer is what separates the good and the slimy.

Auctions to me as a seller are only avenues to get rid of something. What it sells for is not up to me other than I'm very nearly assured that it will sell at a price. If you want to control the price of something you are selling its best to go to a store that does consignment, the EE as you have done, or get beat up on price at a gun show.
 
An auction can be a great way to sell a quantity of items.
Let's say I want to sell a Ross rifle. One rifle. The EE might be a good venue. Or a private sale.
But suppose I want to sell 10 of them. That is a lot of advertising, packing, shipping, PAL checking, etc. An auction would make sense. The whole lot is gone, sold, I get a cheque. Very convenient.
Also, I have noted that auction prices may well be higher than I would ever ask for an item - particularly if selling to a friend.
Then there is a simple fact. An auction is a great way to get rid of something that you wouldn't sell to a friend. That is one reason why you need to know what you are doing if bidding on an auction, particularly if it is a big ticket item. Inspect in person if possible. Under good light. With a flashlight. With a magnifier. Get good photos. Know what to look for in the photos. Ask questions. Know what questions to ask. Decide how much you are prepared to pay. What a reasonable price to pay would be. Then even if there is shill bidding, you aren't going to pay more than you thought would be reasonable..
 
Lots of interesting and informative responses. Thanks.
I have dealt with one auction house, and they are a large well known company, that allows people to buy back their own items---they were surprised that I even asked---I rather doubt that this is a common practice so why is it an issue.
I will comment further in a few days when more people post.
 
I have used auction quite a bit in the last couple years. I selling off lots. Not having to deal with the buyers is worth some to me. Prices range from far too low to over what would be my asking price. Once the auction house has my stuff I no longer worry about it.
 
I'll call myself auctioneer adjacent, mostly outside of gun auction spheres. Most of the time if an honest auctioneer wants to buy an item they will make an offer before the auction and if the offer is declined they have their agent bid up to the amount they offered beforehand as a maximum bid. Typically it is for resale at a different auction with different clientele.
 
The point of an auction is to sell. The buyers' point is to get the best deal. So it is just plain wrong for a seller to bid. And any auctioneer that is bidding(they probably have a bidder in the crowd no matter what you do) is just plain deceitful. The general crowd should be the one to scoop up the bargains not the involved parties.

I don't bother attending. I've seen to many rapid "sold" and also the sellers bidding. I have no confidence that any auction is ethical.
 
Getting a good deal is the lure at auctions but a deal rarely happens, and especially on the good stuff.
Dreamin about getting a good deal is the hook, like buying a lotto ticket and Just Imagining.
Anybody finding out that the seller was also bidding on their dream, well now then they’d be upset.
But I suppose the market dictates, and either a gun sells or it doesn’t....and selling back to the seller doesn’t really count as selling, since if no one else buys it then the seller loses, still owns the gun, and is out of pocket the auctioneer’s cut.
I’d rather this didn’t happen, but I’m not shocked it does.
Buyer beware, set your max price, and try not to get caught up in the hype.

I think for good guns of value that detailed description is very important.
So I echo Pinfire and Canvasback.
Relevant details matter, especially when some auction houses don’t permit in person viewing (wtf?!).
The trouble with reserves is that they can be set too high, which can dampen the excitement of bidders, or stamp it out altogether.
But if set well they don’t ruin the final sale, probably don’t have an affect at all.
Sometimes maybe the seller has an inflated idea of value and/or the auction house doesn’t know any better?
Gun auctioneers in Canada really are Jacks of all stuff, in my opinion, these aren’t specialist auction houses with experts examining and reviewing the guns.
Nor are these houses that have wide buyer bases for high end stuff.
I’d guess that on more expensive items that average selling returns would fluctuate more here in Canada than other places (USA), so selling may be riskier.

Here I’m assuming you’re talking about expensive guns, and since you’ve got more invested might lose more on a bad sale.
For not so expensive guns maybe not such a big deal and just move them along.

What I find interesting about auction sale prices and the resulting perceived value (of a gun) is that hammer price, plus buyer’s premium, plus tax, plus ship all equal to x, and so someone might say this gun sold for this grand total and so mine’s worth that amount too ———> in a private sale.
But actually estimating a gun’s worth should be considered as a range, where the total auction sale price, or even better an average of a few auction totals, is seen as the top end of the range, and that amount minus tax, ship, buyer’s premium, and auctioneer’s cut, is a more reaonable lower end.
Afterall for anything sold in an auction that’s all the seller ever gets, the lower end.
The total auction price does tell you what someone was willing to pay, yes, it’s just maybe a bit circumstantial and only half the story, the other half is what someone was willing to sell for.


I think both buyers and sellers should be reaonable.
Most importantly know the market and what you want to get.
There’s always a risk.
 
Ponds.
Don’t like fishing the one, go find another.

The idea behind auctions is pretty simplistic.

Don’t like the results?
FSBO.
Consignmemt.
EE.

Raffle the chit off.

The curage is strong on this one.
 
Oh please, "I'm bidding on my own item because I want to buy it back?" That's a complete load of horse ####. You are bidding because you want to jack up the price for someone else.

I've used auctions, gun shows, store consignment and bought and sold online. Each has its advantages and disadvantages whether you are a buyer or a seller. Know and understand what they are.
 
I've attended many auctions but my first time trying to bid on items at a recent online auction had me confused. The response I was given turned me off to that house. Maybe it was my ignorance or online incompetence and completely my wrong doing but I registered and attempted to bid on 9 guns. Each time I placed a bid I was told I was already outbid. It then suggested a new price to lead I'd bid thst and it was repeated again and again. 1 particular gun I drove up 10 bids trying to lead. When I questioned I was told to bid big and was hung up on
That makes me question the ethics of that house

If you wish to buy your items back have a friend buy them. The house takes their cut and you save a potential major loss

Before the auction house I used to visit in person went to online bidding I won some great lots. Once the online bidders it the prices greatly increased to the point I all together stopped going.
I do believe if the item you seek is for auction that that is likely the only way to obtain it is to spend more than it's worth if you must have it but knowing a fair market value for things that aren't so rare you can likely find the item somewhere cheaper once the vig is factored in
 
At one of the Auctions I attended in person (before C-19) there was a rifle that started at $400.00.
Nobody bit, it lowered to $185.00 and held for a few moments then $205 ...I just blurted out $300.00 and the bidding stopped.
I got the 1910 manufactured lever action that was of interest to me and a few others , but not serious enough to buy it for what it was .
Trying to buy your property back during an auction is kinda pointless imo ...shades of shady business practices comes to mind.
I have also seen gun store owners take advantage of widows who came in to sell their husbands rifles and left with a fraction of an honest offering for both parties.
Capitalism comes in all shapes and shades of orange and we only need to look South of us to see the effects.
 
I've attended many auctions but my first time trying to bid on items at a recent online auction had me confused. The response I was given turned me off to that house. Maybe it was my ignorance or online incompetence and completely my wrong doing but I registered and attempted to bid on 9 guns. Each time I placed a bid I was told I was already outbid. It then suggested a new price to lead I'd bid thst and it was repeated again and again. 1 particular gun I drove up 10 bids trying to lead. When I questioned I was told to bid big and was hung up on
That makes me question the ethics of that house

If you wish to buy your items back have a friend buy them. The house takes their cut and you save a potential major loss

Before the auction house I used to visit in person went to online bidding I won some great lots. Once the online bidders it the prices greatly increased to the point I all together stopped going.
I do believe if the item you seek is for auction that that is likely the only way to obtain it is to spend more than it's worth if you must have it but knowing a fair market value for things that aren't so rare you can likely find the item somewhere cheaper once the vig is factored in
With respect to being outbid... Suppose an item has an opening bid of $10. I'm prepared to pay $100, but I'm not going to be around when the sale occurs. So I bid $100; that is my absolute maximum. No other bidder can see this. My bid will appear as $10. Laddie bids $15. The computer system will automatically up my bid, I will have top bid. Laddie will be told he has been outbid. This will continue until my cap of $100 is reached. At that point laddie's higher bid will become top bid. This is how the system on iCollector works. It is not the auction house managing the bidding, it is iCollector, the computerized management system.
If you are getting outbid each time you try to place a bid, it means someone has established a maximum. You are going to have to find and exceed this level if you want to place a successful bid.
Covid and online bidding certainly changed the game. Most of the time in an auction hall you were competing with someone physically present. Now, you are competing at the national or international level. The online catalogues are read all over the world. There may be serious competition.
 
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