Semi-auto in prs type matches?

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calgarycanada

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Just wanna get some personal opinions on pros and cons of semi-auto for prs/tactical matches. I understand semis are harder to get accuracy out of compared to bolt but for those matches I believe razors edge accuracy is not required(it never hurts either), more expense to build but, is it beneficial when there is time constraints? Or is (stupid) 5 round magazine limit an issue? I guess I can look at building something that takes AR mags and use 10 round pistol mags, I deally I wouldn't want a restricted. I guess my main question is if semi is beneficial when there is time limit?

Opinions please......

Thanks
 
If you built a 308 with an 18" upper, you might be happy with it. The semi is a little harder to control and keep accurate but it is fun and mag changes can be done quickly.

I built a 24" heavy barrel SR-25 clone and that thing is a beast when prone but any other position is cumbersome. I think the problem is with all of the moving parts, you have to be very consistent with your set up and form.

I've been following PRS type shoots around the web and i have yet to see someone competitive with a Semi. I don't know where they fall behind, just an observance.

Also, 223 wouldn't be heavy enough to knock down or swing most steel in matches so you would want something like 243, 6.5CM, or 308

Edit: Speed in most PRS matches isn't an issue with a bolt action.
A 10 round magazine can be emptied in a hurry! Just make sure to be deliberate with a bolt action, short stroking in competition sucks.. been there!
 
dusticles said:
I've been following PRS type shoots around the web and i have yet to see someone competitive with a Semi. I don't know where they fall behind, just an observance
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That's what I noticed too.
I have seen too many people struggle while cycling the bolt, it may have been ammo/reloading techniques fault but I thought properly loaded ammo in semi may mean not breaking your position everytime? That may speed up things a bit? I have no experience so just thinking out loud
 
I don't have any experience with this so this is mostly speculation from my research in this subject. It would seem that the trade off of the bolt guns being more forgiving to shoot isn't worth the the small time advantage of the semi when the time restraints aren't really that demanding in PRS style matches. Like I said this is mostly speculation as I don't have any experience with with the subject.

Edit: One more thing to consider, stages that require movement with the rifle will usually require the bolt open/back. A bolt gun can gain a few seconds here compared to locking back a semi depending on the system. Just something to think about.
 
I have been viewing PRS with great interest as this a great place to apply a wide range of shooting skills and gear.

When you look at vids of the top shooters, their bolt rifles cycle in a blurr. Fast and smooth... this is good gunsmithing and set up. Someone wanting to compete for the top levels better have gear that runs fast.

There is alot of positional changes and everytime, a semi would need to empty the chamber, lock it back, THEN move. That eats up a ton of time AND can create problems if you run out of ammo in the mag because they are littering the stage.

Watch the recent Vegas match... one stage you change position every 2 shots for a total of 6 positional changes - and the positions are only a couple of feet apart. With a semi, that is a whole lot of ejecting, locking back and an extra mag change for sure. The bolt shooters can transition as soon as they open the bolt... way faster.

As someone told me, a properly set up match taxes any idea and gear a shooter can dream up. Some stages, XYZ is ideal... then the next ABC is ideal. The whole point in field shooting is a game of compromise and strategy. Bring your best mousetrap and see how you stack up.

Typically, I would review the course of fire and see where the most points can be gained or loss then develop gear to suit. PRS usually doesn't release stage info until you are at the match... sometimes, as you show up for the stage.

I am thinking as the sport matures, less gear will be brought to the stage... I see shooters bumpling around with bags and straps and crap they thought might help. The best shooters do use stuff but usually basic, serve the purpose and they make up the rest with shooting skill.... I like that.

My chamber will be a 6XC and 105gr bullet. Have thought about an AR but given the cost and hassle, going to try a bolt rifle first.

Jerry
 
JayCarver said:
I don't have any experience with this so this is mostly speculation from my research in this subject. It would seem that the trade off of the bolt guns being more forgiving to shoot isn't worth the the small time advantage of the semi when the time restraints aren't really that demanding in PRS style matches. Like I said this is mostly speculation as I don't have any experience with with the subject.

Edit: One more thing to consider, stages that require movement with the rifle will usually require the bolt open/back. A bolt gun can gain a few seconds here compared to locking back a semi depending on the system. Just something to think about.
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^Basically this.

You do see them in matches, but they are a PITA to unload during movement (also an issue with internal mag boltguns). They can be a big advantage during some speedy stages, but a liability due to being less reliable (in sandy places even boltguns routinely go down - some guys carry a can of lighter fluid in an ammo pouch and continuously flush out their trigger). Their zero tends to wonder more than a boltgun's, and that's a disadvantage when you're dealing with small targets at long distances in other stages. You don't get sighter shots in these matches.
 
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Also, with a boltgun you have to pull your bolt back when you're switching positions on a barricade or during small movements. I don't recall what the procedure is with a semi (it can vary by range), but at the very least you would need to engage the safety. Some places may require the bolt carrier pulled back. There are some things that they are pickier about down there than we are up here. Our SR rundowns would probably not fly in any match civies could shoot in.

You wouldn't be gaining a lot of speed on most stages, only on ones where you do a bunch of shots from one position. You generally don't take many shots from the same position and you develop the muscle memory to close the bolt as you're getting into position and it becomes fluid as does cycling the bolt for a follow-up shot. Keep in mind that you always have a bit of delay because you need to follow through and spot your own shot. So, even in the best case, it isn't as fast as you can pull the trigger vs. cycling a bolt manually.
 
Yes, there are a few DMR themed events that cater specifically to the semis. They aren't a part of PRS, but they have the same elements (multiple distances form the same firing point, positional shooting, barricades...). These will usually have "DM" or "DMR" in the match title.
 
Hey Jerry
I'm following your 6XC setup. You used savage action, is there any issues cycling that bolt fast? I notice savages have some slack in bolt especially when it's all the way back and picking next round, it seems like bolt tends to wedge itself against the receiver. Also if you don't mind sharing what bottom metal and magazine system are you using?
Thanks
 
Current set up is waiting on part to improve the "fling" of the case. Right now, the case is ejected but just drops out so it may not just drop out depending on your shooting position.

I want the brass flung clear of the action in this type of game... I don't expect to see the brass once fired.

As for cycling, I have done the bolt timing so it cycles very smoothly and fast. I would say I can rack this action as fast as anything else and I can do it from the shoulder or in position.

For bottom metal, I using CDI DBM and AICS mags. Will also do some experimentation with factory parts as savage has just introduced 10 rds mags and I really like these center feed mags in their hunting format.

For perfect feeding, there is lot of small changes and shimming to get everything just so but it is feeding pretty darn good. But there is room for improvement

Jerry

If you want a prefit, just let me know. Pretty hard to get a quality match barrel onto a receiver for anything close to these prefits and they shoot very well.
 
kombayotch said:
Yes, there are a few DMR themed events that cater specifically to the semis. They aren't a part of PRS, but they have the same elements (multiple distances form the same firing point, positional shooting, barricades...). These will usually have "DM" or "DMR" in the match title.
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Thanks for that tip... I have seen on "precision shooting matches" that they actually say you can sign up for a semi division.

BUT then there are all sorts of precision matches that may or may not have anything to do with the actual PRS series.

Regardless, they all look like way too much fun

Was just looking at my range.... umm, with a rimfire, there is all sorts of fun to be had... Oh boy, oh boy...

Jerry
 
There are a bunch of subdivisions for women, senior, LEO/Mil, 308, etc... in various matches. I'm not sure that the PRS itself has a semi division though. They might. They changed a bunch of things this year. They used to have a Hunter division that they did away with.

PRS only has 15 matches affiliated with them. There are hundreds of matches that are not affiliated. The ones that are are among the best and most interesting matches though, and are the ones that attract the top shooters and big sponsors.
 
Off topic but I was watching vids from the Utah precision shooting club. How about permanent ranges for movers and pop up targets set up for any member to shoot whenever?

The main range obviously lets you set up steel to ring at all distances......I think 1200 was their limit???

And they don't need a mag change after 10rds or 20rds or.... :)

What a hoot...

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Current set up is waiting on part to improve the "fling" of the case. Right now, the case is ejected but just drops out so it may not just drop out depending on your shooting position.

I want the brass flung clear of the action in this type of game... I don't expect to see the brass once fired.

As for cycling, I have done the bolt timing so it cycles very smoothly and fast. I would say I can rack this action as fast as anything else and I can do it from the shoulder or in position.

For bottom metal, I using CDI DBM and AICS mags. Will also do some experimentation with factory parts as savage has just introduced 10 rds mags and I really like these center feed mags in their hunting format.

For perfect feeding, there is lot of small changes and shimming to get everything just so but it is feeding pretty darn good. But there is room for improvement

Jerry

If you want a prefit, just let me know. Pretty hard to get a quality match barrel onto a receiver for anything close to these prefits and they shoot very well.
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Let us know how savage mags play out. If they function good I'll be looking for few for current setups to start.
Does PTG bolt body and/or head helps with sloppy bolt?
 
The reason I have chosen the Savage for my PRS rifle IS that sloppy bolt WITH the floating bolt head.

Solves so many problems and keep running even when run in dusty dirty environments.

That floating bolt head is why Savages can deliver such good performance in a hunter format.

I have a PTG bolt to bling up my FTR rifle. I will be running the looser fitting factory bolt for the PRS rig.

Jerry
 
That makes sense, I guess I have to try manipulating it before whining about it.

Mystic Precision said:
The reason I have chosen the Savage for my PRS rifle IS that sloppy bolt WITH the floating bolt head.

Solves so many problems and keep running even when run in dusty dirty environments.

That floating bolt head is why Savages can deliver such good performance in a hunter format.

I have a PTG bolt to bling up my FTR rifle. I will be running the looser fitting factory bolt for the PRS rig.

Jerry
Click to expand...
 
Mystic Precision said:
Off topic but I was watching vids from the Utah precision shooting club. How about permanent ranges for movers and pop up targets set up for any member to shoot whenever?
Click to expand...

There may be some range out there that have them and allow all members to use them whenever. I've never seen one that members could use at their leisure. The ones that I have seen could only be used when designated ROs were present (to prevent misuse). I don't know. I would be hesitant to put them on a public range having seen the idiocy inflicted on the gongs and dueling tree at my home range.

A mechanical mover is pretty easy to build. We built ours from an old hay elevator. Could build one from scratch with a couple hundred bucks worth of salvaged parts. That is the plan if we can ever find a venue to host these matches at. There will be movers in several stages.
 
Here is an automated mover setup at a private range in Michigan (MTC).

[youtube]6p7xeTNukSk[/youtube]

5 targets at 5 different speeds at the same time. Kind of shows how basic our mover is...

There will be several matches at this range this summer. It's located in Lake City Michigan.
 
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