Simple. The gas system of the G43 was copied from that of the SVT 40. The G43 bolt locking system was likewise taken from the that of the DP28.
Semi Auto WWII "Long Rifle" Who really had it figured out?
- Thread starter SKScanuck
- Start date
Simple. The gas system of the G43 was copied from that of the SVT 40. The G43 bolt locking system was likewise taken from the that of the DP28.
semi auto rifle
JP hit it on the head, the Mondragon was the first such rifle to gain any real acceptance around the world before the turn of the twentieth century. The design was well ahead of its time and sound under combat conditions. It's main weakness was the lack of decent ammunition and light weight.
I've seen a few in museums but that's it. The rifles were extremely well made and finished.
Looking closely at them there are a lot of features that the rest of the world borrowed from the Mondragon. It must have been prohibitively expensive, even for the period it was built.
The funny thing about original ideas is that as information becomes available, or the concepts are rationalised, it sparks imaginations in many people at the same time. There are very few inventions or discoveries that only occur to one individual or corporation.
It's all relevant
JP hit it on the head, the Mondragon was the first such rifle to gain any real acceptance around the world before the turn of the twentieth century. The design was well ahead of its time and sound under combat conditions. It's main weakness was the lack of decent ammunition and light weight.
I've seen a few in museums but that's it. The rifles were extremely well made and finished.
Looking closely at them there are a lot of features that the rest of the world borrowed from the Mondragon. It must have been prohibitively expensive, even for the period it was built.
The funny thing about original ideas is that as information becomes available, or the concepts are rationalised, it sparks imaginations in many people at the same time. There are very few inventions or discoveries that only occur to one individual or corporation.
It's all relevant
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
incestuous designs
The French may be blamed (rightly or wrongly) for being a lot of things, but in WWI they were anything but unimaginative. They realized early on that bolt actions weren't going to win the war. The lessons of the Franco Prussian were still fresh; just the Germans were quicker to adopt. The French did have a very simple semi-automatic rifle in the RSC Mle.1917 ( http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl29-e.htm ) and over 80,000 were issued. The Swiss weren't quite a major combatant, in terms of men under arms and massed forces manouevering across the battlefield.
What I find intriguing about the Model 1917 French rifle is how much JC Garand ripped off its major elements
A tilting bolt was copied for the SVT38, SVT40, MAS40, AG42, MAS44, MAS49, FN49, FN FAL etc. Who thought of it first?
The French may be blamed (rightly or wrongly) for being a lot of things, but in WWI they were anything but unimaginative. They realized early on that bolt actions weren't going to win the war. The lessons of the Franco Prussian were still fresh; just the Germans were quicker to adopt. The French did have a very simple semi-automatic rifle in the RSC Mle.1917 ( http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl29-e.htm ) and over 80,000 were issued. The Swiss weren't quite a major combatant, in terms of men under arms and massed forces manouevering across the battlefield.
What I find intriguing about the Model 1917 French rifle is how much JC Garand ripped off its major elements
- - gas-operated semi-automatic,
- - full length wood stock,
- - long stroke gas piston,
- - gas cylinder near the muzzle,
- - return spring behind the gas piston,
- - gas piston connected to the bolt group by the operating rod, which includes the cocking handle on the right side,
- - rotating bolt, which has two sets of radial lugs that engage respective cuts made on the inner wall of receiver, and
- - an integral box magazine with en-block clips.
A tilting bolt was copied for the SVT38, SVT40, MAS40, AG42, MAS44, MAS49, FN49, FN FAL etc. Who thought of it first?
Last edited:
evolution versus inspiration
What some guys are not coming face-to-face with is the fact that firearms design is essentially an evolutionary process. If something works, it gets copied. Thus, the gas-trap system of the Gew 41 was bulky, heavy, cumbersome and didn't work very well, so it was superceded by the tapped-barrel short-stroke piston of the Tokarev.
BTW, Saive patented the tilting-bolt system in 1936, but I notice something pretty similar on the 1890 Winchester .22 and again on the Model 12 shotgun.
If you want to play with something REALLY different, get yourself an Armaguerra Fucile Semiautomatico Model 1939. It's just as if someone wrote a book about how not to build a semi-auto rifle.... and somebody else found the book and thought that it was an instruction manual! Really wierd. Trigger mech must me mechanically cocked for every shot, thing has a semi-automatic firing-pin, inertia bolt-closing following on spring-powered loading cycle, semi-locked bolt with a trigger-operated locking wedge forced into position by the vertically-operating hammer; wedge then trips the semi-auto firing-pin.
My head hurts every time I think about the firing cycle. And milling-machine work done so beautifully that the milled receivers (both of them) look like stampings!
What some guys are not coming face-to-face with is the fact that firearms design is essentially an evolutionary process. If something works, it gets copied. Thus, the gas-trap system of the Gew 41 was bulky, heavy, cumbersome and didn't work very well, so it was superceded by the tapped-barrel short-stroke piston of the Tokarev.
BTW, Saive patented the tilting-bolt system in 1936, but I notice something pretty similar on the 1890 Winchester .22 and again on the Model 12 shotgun.
If you want to play with something REALLY different, get yourself an Armaguerra Fucile Semiautomatico Model 1939. It's just as if someone wrote a book about how not to build a semi-auto rifle.... and somebody else found the book and thought that it was an instruction manual! Really wierd. Trigger mech must me mechanically cocked for every shot, thing has a semi-automatic firing-pin, inertia bolt-closing following on spring-powered loading cycle, semi-locked bolt with a trigger-operated locking wedge forced into position by the vertically-operating hammer; wedge then trips the semi-auto firing-pin.
My head hurts every time I think about the firing cycle. And milling-machine work done so beautifully that the milled receivers (both of them) look like stampings!
Bringing this thread back to life.
I have to admit the French RSC Model 19 was far ahead of it's time.
That being said the Russians fielded the SVT38 and the upgraded SVT40 in good numbers against the Finns and later the Germans.
The SVT40 in my opinion was the Grandfather of the modern "assault rifle".
The short stroke piston, tilting block design and detachable 10 round magazine (Rock in AK style) worked very well. The Germans copied the short piston design since their semi auto didn't work very well.
Another interesting note. The Garand was a gas trap system until 1940 when it was retrofitted to a long stroke piston system. So the argument that the American's had the first good semi auto isn't correct. They had a system that was competitive only a few years after the Russian rifles had been in service using a short piston system.
I personally think the SVT40 was the most underrated rifle in the war. While the Garand was the most overrated.
By the way if you compare a SKS to a SVT40, it's like comparing a volkswagen to a Porche. The SVT40 is a far more elegant and higher quality rifle. The SKS is crude in comparison. Also while very long the SVT40 shoulders and balances better than the SKS.
Features of the SVT40:
-7.62x54r so basically the Russian .308/.30-06.
-10 round detachable mag, could also use stripper clips
-Short stroke tilting block system (Similar to the FN FAL operating system)
-Adjustable gas system
-Built in muzzle brake/compensator
The more I find out about the Russian and German equipment they were fielding, the more I realize how lucky we were for the Eastern front. The Russians were fielding millions of these semi auto rifles. The myth that the Germans didn't have enough STG44 rifles to make a difference. Was exactly that a myth. They had 400,000 of those assault rifles. Fortunately they were used extensively on the Eastern front and didn't see much service outside of that theater.
I have to admit the French RSC Model 19 was far ahead of it's time.
That being said the Russians fielded the SVT38 and the upgraded SVT40 in good numbers against the Finns and later the Germans.
The SVT40 in my opinion was the Grandfather of the modern "assault rifle".
The short stroke piston, tilting block design and detachable 10 round magazine (Rock in AK style) worked very well. The Germans copied the short piston design since their semi auto didn't work very well.
Another interesting note. The Garand was a gas trap system until 1940 when it was retrofitted to a long stroke piston system. So the argument that the American's had the first good semi auto isn't correct. They had a system that was competitive only a few years after the Russian rifles had been in service using a short piston system.
I personally think the SVT40 was the most underrated rifle in the war. While the Garand was the most overrated.
By the way if you compare a SKS to a SVT40, it's like comparing a volkswagen to a Porche. The SVT40 is a far more elegant and higher quality rifle. The SKS is crude in comparison. Also while very long the SVT40 shoulders and balances better than the SKS.
Features of the SVT40:
-7.62x54r so basically the Russian .308/.30-06.
-10 round detachable mag, could also use stripper clips
-Short stroke tilting block system (Similar to the FN FAL operating system)
-Adjustable gas system
-Built in muzzle brake/compensator
The more I find out about the Russian and German equipment they were fielding, the more I realize how lucky we were for the Eastern front. The Russians were fielding millions of these semi auto rifles. The myth that the Germans didn't have enough STG44 rifles to make a difference. Was exactly that a myth. They had 400,000 of those assault rifles. Fortunately they were used extensively on the Eastern front and didn't see much service outside of that theater.
cptseawolf
CGN Regular
- Location
- Saskatchewan
Johnson Model 1941 was way different than the rest...but only saw limited action
The BAR uses a locking piece connected to the bolt with a swinging link that tilts in and out of a recess in the receiver. The bolt itself just goes straight back and forth.
epoxy7 said:
I think the Federov Avtomat comes closer, seeing as the 6.5x50mm Japanese cartridge is closer to being an intermediate cartridge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat
epoxy7 said:
The Johnson was actually recoil operated, with a reciprocating barrel and rotating bolt.
Yes, the Johnson has a rotating bolt. In particular, it has THE 8-lug rotating bolt with space for 1 lug left for the extractor and a 20-degree rotation to open/close as does..... that wonderful modern AR-15/M-16/C-7/M-4 series.
Locking flap system on the DP-28 and the Kar-43 was patented by KJELLMAN originally. Doesn't sound very Russian to me.
Kar-43 gas system definitely was a direct, simplified copy from the SVT: no quibble there.
As to the terrific originality of the BAR, get your hands on an Austro-Hungarian Mannlicher Model 1885, 1886, 1888 or 1888/90, turn it upside-down, drill a hole in the barrel and put on a piston and housing, put a return spring behind the bolt-handle and put a 20-round magazine onto it.... and THEN tell me how original the BAR might be.
BTW, both the Winchester Model of 1907 and the Remington Model 8 saw trench service in the Great War; the French had some and the British also had a few. Nice thing about the 1907 Winchester was that a 10-round magazine was available. BTW, the Model 8 could be loaded very rapidly; every one I have seen is cut for a charger! At one time, Remington .35 ammo was sold in chargers for the Model 8. Interwar use continued by several militaries, including the US, for developing tactical doctrines for the use of self-loading rifles.
And there were TWO distinct Hatcher semi-auto rifles, designed by two separate Hatchers: Julian and his brother both designed rifles. It is amazing the lengths to which a bureaucracy will go to get rid of a development which THEY don't have control over.
.
Locking flap system on the DP-28 and the Kar-43 was patented by KJELLMAN originally. Doesn't sound very Russian to me.
Kar-43 gas system definitely was a direct, simplified copy from the SVT: no quibble there.
As to the terrific originality of the BAR, get your hands on an Austro-Hungarian Mannlicher Model 1885, 1886, 1888 or 1888/90, turn it upside-down, drill a hole in the barrel and put on a piston and housing, put a return spring behind the bolt-handle and put a 20-round magazine onto it.... and THEN tell me how original the BAR might be.
BTW, both the Winchester Model of 1907 and the Remington Model 8 saw trench service in the Great War; the French had some and the British also had a few. Nice thing about the 1907 Winchester was that a 10-round magazine was available. BTW, the Model 8 could be loaded very rapidly; every one I have seen is cut for a charger! At one time, Remington .35 ammo was sold in chargers for the Model 8. Interwar use continued by several militaries, including the US, for developing tactical doctrines for the use of self-loading rifles.
And there were TWO distinct Hatcher semi-auto rifles, designed by two separate Hatchers: Julian and his brother both designed rifles. It is amazing the lengths to which a bureaucracy will go to get rid of a development which THEY don't have control over.
.
One rifle which everybody forgets is the STANDARD gas-operated rifle made in the USA and offered to the public a century ago. You sometimes run into one at a gun show. A bit odd, not terrifically reliable by reports. I wonder what one could be made to do with GOOD ammunition.....
.
.
MauserMike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
How much do people know about the early semi automatic shoulder fired rifles designed by Mannlicher in the late 1800's like the model 95?
I have read that it was his design that inspired many of the Garand's functional elements.
I have read that it was his design that inspired many of the Garand's functional elements.
There's a lot to agree with here
, but also a few things to politely disagree with....(1) A major difference in how I see the STF44 being "more" of the grandfather of assault rifles lies (a) in the modes of fire and (b) in the cartridge fired - it quite frankly was (a) the first select fire rifle firing (b) an intermediate rifle cartridge...
(2) Again, putting aside "purely design" considerations for a moment (b/c I think you have some great points there), it's important to recall that the SVT was issued primarily as a sniper rifle or a DMR (and, okay, it's "arguable" just what defined a sniper or designated marksman in Russia durring WWII), as oppose to the widespread and more general issue of the Garand as "the" infantry rifle of an enire army - again, "issuance" is a different consideration, but IMHO a telling one.
(3) IMHO, the select-mode firepower was issued to where the Germans were encountering the most auto-fire resisance: the Germans had submachineguns, but the Russians worshipped & widely issued 'em.....
I'm a big fan of the svt 40, i have 1 and while not perfect, its an very good rifle. The russians needed weapon fast so while the svt 40 was an improved version of the svt 38, if they have more time, they could have made the svt 40 even better. The svt gas regulator, while innovating at the time, could have been made simpler and less trouble some, but in well trained soldiers, still worked quit good.
I don't. The piston system was what made the assault rifle possible. Before that semi autos really didn't work very well. The STG44 was thanks to the Germans studying the piston system on the Russian SVT-38/40.
Yup my mistake. I guess I should have checked wikipedia first as well.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Smellie, while Maxim designed and built an airplane almost the size of a lancaster, it's flight was rather short.ie; off the barge platform and right into the river.
There's a lot to agree with here
(1) A major difference in how I see the STF44 being "more" of the grandfather of assault rifles lies (a) in the modes of fire and (b) in the cartridge fired - it quite frankly was (a) the first select fire rifle firing (b) an intermediate rifle cartridge...
Well here's my rebuttal to that
. The STG44 was the first assault rifle. It wasn't the Grandfather since it actually was an assault rifle. Hence "Sturmgewehr" , storm or assault. Which is how we got the term "assault rifle". I don't consider the SVT40 an assault rifle. I consider it the missing link on how the Germans ended up creating the assault rifle. IE the Grandfather, but not an actual assault rifle. I probably shouldn't have used that term . I'll avoid that in the future. 
By the way there was a select fire SVT40 with a 20 round detachable mag. It didn't work out too well. It was called the AVT. The safety acted as the select fire mechanism. Sound familiar?
On a side note, although the SVT40 wasn't an intermediate cartridge, the beginnings of the idea were there. The SVT40 has a built in muzzle brake. Firing the 7.62x54r feels like a much smaller round. When I was shooting mine there was almost no muzzle climb at all. In other words the idea of needing a more controllable round was already taking place.
Actually the SVT40 was meant to be issued to all troops as a replacement to the bolt action rifle. It was supposed to be their primary battle rifle. An estimate of 5 million SVT40s were produced. Only some of the SVT40 rifles were used for sniper rifles/designated marksmen. The sniper version has a notch in the back of the receiver and is considered very collectible.
The issue they ran into was the SVT being too complicated to make compared to the bolt action rifles. It was estimated that the Russians lost a couple hundred thousand SVT40 rifles in the beginning when the Germans attacked. People were cheap and plentiful on the Eastern front. Replacing complicated weapons wasn't as easy as throwing more people at it. They could produce a lot more sub machine guns and bolt action rifles in the same time as the SVT40. It was a war of attrition with human lives being the cheap way to win. Otherwise the Russian army ideal was for a semi auto battle rifle. They had already gone away from the bolt action as a battle rifle.
Gas operation isn't a fundamental characteristic of an assault rifle, even if most of them work that way. Select fire and an intermediate cartridge are the two defining characteristics. The Avtomat, by virtue of being select fire and using a slightly less powerful cartridge than most other rifles of the day, comes closer to filling that definition.
A better case could be made that the SVT-40 was the conceptual predecessor to the various post-WWII battle rifles, such as the FAL or the G3.
One could just as easily argue that the Mondragon was the grandfather of the assault rifle; after all it was the first semiauto rifle adopted by an army to use gas operation.
