semi vs pump

Semiauto vs Pump action

  • Autoloading

    Votes: 60 32.6%

  • pump action

    Votes: 124 67.4%
  • Total voters
    184
Win/64 said:
That's a load of crap. I have seen lots of cheap shells jam in pump guns.
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The answer is in the question, CHEAP SHELLS. Of the many thousands of rounds I've fired I have yet to have one induce a malfunction. I only shoot factory ammo so issues with reloads is outside my experience.

As for the Miami shootout concerns. The issues experience by both good and bad individuals is a result of poor or absent training. I strongly doubt LE practice, preach or even discuss single handed manipulations of a long gun. There is no doubt operating a long gun with one hand/arm is much more difficult than with both, but it can be done. The argument that Platt remained effective with his semi mini 14 is valid. However, one must remember that rifle ammunition is very consistent with regards to charge and load. Shotgun ammo does not follow the same trend.

Pump shotguns will continue to outshine their semi auto counterparts due to reliability issues. When it comes to a rifle the semi auto format is the choice of champions.

TDC
 
TDC said:
The argument that Platt remained effective with his semi mini 14 is valid. However, one must remember that rifle ammunition is very consistent with regards to charge and load. Shotgun ammo does not follow the same trend.

Pump shotguns will continue to outshine their semi auto counterparts due to reliability issues.

TDC
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TDC, I doubt that the difference in pressure from shotgun ammo out of the same box would result in a stoppage. If the ammo will cycle through a pump without issue, it will cycle through the semi-auto. If the semi-auto gets tied up due to an ammunition issue, that same ammo will tie up the pump, and time will be spent clearing the jam. When I chronographed 12 gauge slugs I was actually pleasantly surprised how consistent some of it was. I've never seen properly stored factory 12 gauge ammunition that was so inconsistent that it would effect the cycling reliability of an inertia operated semi-auto shotgun, or a gas gun for that matter. Short stroking a pump gun in a fight could cost you your life, and the semi-auto will not short stroke.

As to the ability to carry on a fight with a gunshot wound that has broken your arm when you are armed with a pump shotgun, there is no training in the world that can improve that situation. Once discharged, the gun must be held vertically with the butt on the ground, the slide moved rearward to eject the spent cartridge, #### the action, and bring a round from the magazine tube onto the elevator. Then the slide must be moved forward to raise the elevator, chamber the round, and lock-up the bolt. It must be remembered that these are rack guns, and might not be as slicked up as a personal firearm might be. All the while you are trying real hard not to get shot again, you are trying to bring enough fire on the target to protect your buddies, and hopefully stop the guy who is trying to kill you with rapid rifle fire.

The FBI is probably one of the most gun oriented LEO operating in the world. I doubt that the FBI's training is lacking, but training does evolve, and this particular scenario has been given a great deal of attention. There was some discussion about dropping the shotgun from service altogether in favor of AR-15's, but I don't know if that was followed through or not. Given the extent of his wound, the fact that Mireles tried to fire at all says much for his character, but clearly had his shotgun been a semi-auto, the dynamics of the fight would have been changed dramatically.
 
MauserMike said:
Does anyone else find the result of the poll a surprise? Based on what I see out hunting and at the range, semis are much more popular.
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I don't. The pump is the traditional choice for a tactical gun but the semis are more popular for clay shooting and hunting. Therein lies the problem with pump guns. They are meant for high stress situations but are vulerable to short stroking if you don't shoot them often. The key with them is to practice occasionally and keep your skills up. The last thing you want to do is forget to pump the action in a pressure situation and I've seen it happen with pump shooters under no greater pressure than a fast pair of clays. If you won't practice with a pump then a semi is a better choice.

I voted for a pump gun because that is what I use on our property but I also make sure I shoot a pump gun at targets at least once a month.
 
I think a pump is better suited for SHTF where reliability and durability are king. It is a simpler mechanism.

I think auto can be best for tacticool combat shotty because the one main complaint is that they are unreliable, but that is only with light bird/clay loads that tacticoolers would never use. If your buck and slug, then autos should be just fine. The advantage is the faster follow up shots.
 
For the zombie slaying tacti-metro-###ual gun I would lean toward the pump for post apocalyptic reliability.

For everything else I will take the semi.
 
I went with pump for the cool-factor, i haven't used shotguns enough to really have anything to compare.

(Ultimate cool factor: Shorty double barrel, or shorty lever action shotguns :cool:, Sorry watched too much terminator and other action movies lol)
 
Boomer said:
TDC, I doubt that the difference in pressure from shotgun ammo out of the same box would result in a stoppage. If the ammo will cycle through a pump without issue, it will cycle through the semi-auto. If the semi-auto gets tied up due to an ammunition issue, that same ammo will tie up the pump, and time will be spent clearing the jam. When I chronographed 12 gauge slugs I was actually pleasantly surprised how consistent some of it was. I've never seen properly stored factory 12 gauge ammunition that was so inconsistent that it would effect the cycling reliability of an inertia operated semi-auto shotgun, or a gas gun for that matter. Short stroking a pump gun in a fight could cost you your life, and the semi-auto will not short stroke.

As to the ability to carry on a fight with a gunshot wound that has broken your arm when you are armed with a pump shotgun, there is no training in the world that can improve that situation. Once discharged, the gun must be held vertically with the butt on the ground, the slide moved rearward to eject the spent cartridge, #### the action, and bring a round from the magazine tube onto the elevator. Then the slide must be moved forward to raise the elevator, chamber the round, and lock-up the bolt. It must be remembered that these are rack guns, and might not be as slicked up as a personal firearm might be. All the while you are trying real hard not to get shot again, you are trying to bring enough fire on the target to protect your buddies, and hopefully stop the guy who is trying to kill you with rapid rifle fire.

The FBI is probably one of the most gun oriented LEO operating in the world. I doubt that the FBI's training is lacking, but training does evolve, and this particular scenario has been given a great deal of attention. There was some discussion about dropping the shotgun from service altogether in favor of AR-15's, but I don't know if that was followed through or not. Given the extent of his wound, the fact that Mireles tried to fire at all says much for his character, but clearly had his shotgun been a semi-auto, the dynamics of the fight would have been changed dramatically.
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I agree, ammo from the same box, even the same style and manufacturer shouldn't cause issue. The concern is when mixing ammo, or running ammo that has not been proven in ones auto. Short of a shell head separating any stoppage in a pump gun is either mechanical(which may or may not be operator related) or the operator which is directly training related. Short stroking is operator error. A failure to eject in a semi is a bad round, bad gun or both. All shotgun failures I've observed were either due to short stroking(operator error) or failures to feed or eject in semi's. I have yet to see a semi auto shotgun that is as reliable as a pump gun. All the semi's I've shot against at 3 gun have choked. A buddy had a Fabarm SAT8 semi that was nearly 100% reliable. It wasn't overly fond of the Walmart value packs but would eat slug or buck all day long.

The Pump gun has its limitations but it is by far a more robust and reliable system over a semi auto. The ability to mix all types of ammo, lethal, less lethal, and non-lethal without worry of function puts the pump on top.

As for Mireles. A semi would have been a great benefit. A semi rifle would have been the smart choice. Too bad the bad guys had that one figured out before the good guys. As I mentioned before, I highly doubt the officers were trained in any sort of single hand manipulations of long guns. They probably received zero training on operating their handguns with one hand. Mireles rose to the occasion and handed some a$$. Learning to operate your long gun with one hand during the fight is less than ideal.

How many shooters ever practice shooting from their support side with either long gun or handgun?? How many practice support side single handed manipulations and firing??

TDC
 
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TDC said:
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How many shooters ever practice shooting from their support side with either long gun or handgun??
TDC
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Well, I do, but I suspect I might be in the minority.

I killed my warthog with a shot from my support side. It was pretty funny really, the hog scooted to our right at full gallop quartering away, I didn't even think about it, the rifle came up to my left shoulder and I rugged him; he piled up without a twitch. The PH looks at me with his mouth hanging open and says, "Did you just shoot that thing (the hog) left handed?" I was able to act smug the rest of the day. I've always thought ambidextrous marksmanship was a worthwhile skill to master, but I never really expected to have the opportunity to put it into practice.

Continuing to fight with a serious gunshot wound as the motivation to shoot with my support hand is not something I aspire to add to my resume though.
 
Boomer said:
Well, I do, but I suspect I might be in the minority.

I killed my warthog with a shot from my support side. It was pretty funny really, the hog scooted to our right at full gallop quartering away, I didn't even think about it, the rifle came up to my left shoulder and I rugged him; he piled up without a twitch. The PH looks at me with his mouth hanging open and says, "Did you just shoot that thing (the hog) left handed?" I was able to act smug the rest of the day. I've always thought ambidextrous marksmanship was a worthwhile skill to master, but I never really expected to have the opportunity to put it into practice.

Continuing to fight with a serious gunshot wound as the motivation to shoot with my support hand is not something I aspire to add to my resume though.
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Great shot Boomer. As for being wounded as a motivating factor to learn offside or single hand manipulations. Its not a choice, its a reality. More tools for the tool box...

TDC
 
Number of years ago I had to go like hell at a three gun match to keep up with the semi's. There is a speed advantage to the semi auto's except possibly the most religious pump shooters who have to spend hours & hours in practice.

Having said that, the pump is comforting (and fun) to shoot.

I have never short stroked my S&W 3000, but I find that the slide will move back a bit and prevent easy, smooth reloads if I have the muzzle up and a round in the chamber.
 
All my "tac-ti-cool" guns are pumps because my autos and o/us are too good to cut downand my cheap SXSs would look too much like an Outlaw. All my guns are reliable with everything I put in them.:D
 
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