Seriously dissapointed with my Ross M10

S

spi

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Calgary, Alberta
I have a Ross M10 by way of an older relative that got it as a sporterized piece in the 1940's. I've spent no little time restoring it to as much of it's military glory as possible. Finally I took it out the other day and shot some Igman .303 out of it. Well, it's about 5 inches high at 50 yards using the battle sight, but that is not the problem. What is the problem is that it is entirely a poor feeder. Unless you are slamming the bolt back and then ramming it forward, the f***king thing jams. Same when you try to load the f***ker. I'm half inclined to sell the f***king thing.

Anyone got any helpful comments?
 
What sort of jams? Cartridges not being presented properly from the magazine? Not extracting/ejecting? You note that there are two spring fingers on either side of the magazine - you will feel the rounds snapping through these, but it shouldn't take excessive force, the bolt shouldn't have to be rammed to and fro. Does the bolt cycle smoothly when no cartridges are present?
 
spi said:
I have a Ross M10 by way of an older relative that got it as a sporterized piece in the 1940's. I've spent no little time restoring it to as much of it's military glory as possible. Finally I took it out the other day and shot some Igman .303 out of it. Well, it's about 5 inches high at 50 yards using the battle sight, but that is not the problem. What is the problem is that it is entirely a poor feeder. Unless you are slamming the bolt back and then ramming it forward, the f***king thing jams. Same when you try to load the f***ker. I'm half inclined to sell the f***king thing.

Anyone got any helpful comments?
Click to expand...


Hmmm...wasn't that why the Canadian troops ditched them and grabbed SMLE's if they could? So I heard anyway.

That Igman ammo isn't supposed to be that great, try another brand and see if that makes a difference.
 
spi! Sounds like a feed lip problem. Doesn't take much of a increase or decrease in the original feed lip angle to cause jamming. Fortunately mags are still available if you need to replace yours. Also look for dents on the side of the magazine which can sometimes impedes smooth operation of the follower. As you probably already know the Ross magazine is a little more complicated that a Mauser magazine and tthat complication can be added to by dirt, too much grease from storage, etc. Sometimes ammo wll be the culprit and OAL can be a critical factor. My 1910 seems to feed well using a small variety of commercial and military ammo so I would suspect a magazine problem. Hope this helps. Joe
 
cantom said:
Hmmm...wasn't that why the Canadian troops ditched them and grabbed SMLE's if they could? So I heard anyway.

That Igman ammo isn't supposed to be that great, try another brand and see if that makes a difference.
Click to expand...


No, they ditched them because the action really really didn't like mud. Add to that a bolt that could be improperly assembled, and that would exit the firearem in a brisk and orderly manner through the shooters head (ouch!) if this was done, didn't inspire confidence. Also, wartime spec ammuntion didn't fit the very tight match condition chambers these rifles had, leading to jams. They made excellent sniper rifles and most canadian snipers stayed with them after the main body of troops swithed to the Lee enfield.
 
tiriaq said:
What sort of jams? Cartridges not being presented properly from the magazine? Not extracting/ejecting? You note that there are two spring fingers on either side of the magazine - you will feel the rounds snapping through these, but it shouldn't take excessive force, the bolt shouldn't have to be rammed to and fro. Does the bolt cycle smoothly when no cartridges are present?
Click to expand...

Yes, bolt cycles smoothly and easily when no rounds are present. When rounds are loaded it takes considerable force to open and close the bolt. Very stiff and jerky, as though the cartridges are sticking or hanging up somewhere, although everything seems smooth as far as I can tell. My familiarity with the Ross and it's parts is about nil though.

Here are some pics.

Top, looking into mag:

m10magtop.jpg


Right side view of mag:

m10magrtview.jpg


Left side view into mag:

m10magltview.jpg


View into mag facing bolt:

m10magbltview.jpg


View into mag facing bore:

m10magboreview.jpg


Exterior magazine left side, small dent circled:

m10magside.jpg


Bottom of mag, dent circled:

m10magbottom.jpg
 
Right in front of the two spring clips are two tabs which have been bent over and folded down into the magazine. They should not be like that. I would suggest you contact "klunk". His parts ad in the EE lists Mk. III magazines.
Forget it - studied the photos further - the light reflection had fooled me - they haven't been altered.
 
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I read recently how the main reason for the poor performance of the Ross was
the specs for canadian ammo were different (smaller) than the british rounds.
The Ross worked fine in canada and when it could be fed canadian ammo but at the front where logistics were an issue and all that could be found were british rounds the rifles were almost useless. A sniper would not have the same problem and could probably have found canadian rounds.
 
That is an oversimplification. Only a percentage of cartridges from one or two contractors had compatibility problems. Problem was that this ammunition couldn't be kept separate, and there was not an oversupply of ammunition. According to McBride, Cdn. machinegunners would test every cartridge through the T slot of the spare bolts from their Colt 1895 machine guns before filling the belts. SMLE rifles also had problems with some of the off-spec. ammunition. Chamber dimensions were modified for SMLEs as well. Mud, ammunition, metallurgy and training were all factors.
None of this is relevant to spi's problem, though.
 
Hi All.
Does the feeding issue occur with only one cartridge in the magazine? If not then Try with 2 etc. If it does jam with only one, then comparison with another Ross which feeds fine would be useful. It may be something simple such as spring/follower damage etc. Mine is smooth as silk with a variety of ammo and handloads of differing OAL's. Yours should be as well.
As far as incorrect bolt assembly is concerned it appears that it is one of those incidents that recieves a lot more attention than incidents dictate. Kind of like "razor blades in apples at Halloween". Not that we should not be aware, however, just understand the issue and deal with it. A Ross bolt is difficult to install wrongly assembled and it can be verified correct by many a competent gunsmith. Deal with it responsibly. Done.
As for the jamming in WW1. Yes the action is obviously less tollerant of dirt/mud being jammed into the action. The complexity and design of the action as compared to other bolt actions make this somewhat obvious. Especially the lack of force available to cam the action fully closed or to open the bolt from a fully closed position. A regular bolt style action transfers fully the rotational effort by the user to uncam the lugs. In using the Ross however the force one exerts pulling straight back is only fractionally converted to the rotational force which uncams the lugs. If all is free in movement then this is quite satisfactory. Otherwise it quickly makes for a difficult cycling. Here lies the actual issue with what I believe has been identified by others than myself as the real issue with Ross jamming problems. The rear lugs on the bolt come in contact with the receiver to stop its rearward motion on opening of the bolt. It is the deformation, however slight, which causes a less than perfect mating fit of the bolt lugs on closing. This, COMBINED WITH, the tightening of tolerances in the recieving lugs as the barrel gets warm/hot after firing makes for a situation where upon closing hard the bolt lugs jam into the receiving slots tight enough that the force one exerts rearward on the bolt is insufficient to break it free so it can cam out. I can easily demonstrate this with my own rifle by cycling about 15 -20 rounds quickly through it until it suddenly jams tight. Simply by letting it cool for a good 20-30 minutes, it opens and functions again quite easily.
Although there may be some merrit to "tight chambers" and "large ammo", I quite suspect this was simply knee-jerk political and manufacturer excuses for what at the time was problem not understood.
I enjoy mine very much by the way and hope that you may fettle the faults from yours easily.
Cheers
Jaguar/The County
 
I've seen bolts with the left rear lug battered. Many Rosses were ungraded with a larger bolt stop, and this coupled with better metallurgical control in the boltheads solved the problem of deformed lugs. If the barrel of the boltstop stands proud of its housing, its one of the larger ones. If its flush, its the earlier pattern.
There was a lot of politics and media involvement in the Ross rifle problems. In a way it is not too dissimilar to the situation with M-16s early in the Vietnam War.
 
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