seriously... why is black badge training so expensive?

I like both games...although if you are TOLD how to shoot a stage.....then you might as well shoot PPC. I like PPC as well BTW...just a different game again. I would shoot more IDPA, but alas it has not prospered in my neck of the woods....although the IDPA guys have tried. CDP flourished briefly in this area (NB).
What I find annoying are new to the action shooting sports shooters, (or those who have not gone to more than a match or two; or don't even participate in sanctioned matches)...who have everything figured out. For the most part..those who lack are the same who are not willing to put the time in to practice to get better (which IS a necessary)..so yes, and it does cost money if you shoot rounds downrange. They point out shooters doing better than they are, and they point to money, or guns, 0r gear,.etc....when the fact is that THEY do NOT put the time in to get better. = FACT.
Those who blame others have no one to blame except themselves. You want to get better, than put some research into, put some time into it. Dryfire, live fire, video yourself shooting...swallow your pride for ####s sake and ask for training,..ask for help. The shooters I notice getting better push themselves, they are usually open minded and practice to make themselves better. I get sick and tired of reading #### on IPSC, #### on IDPA, #### on this shooting sport..etc..e.tc..etc. Grow a set and confront those you flame on the internet. Really easy to mouth off behind a computer over the internet. "I don't like your STI/ Tanfoglio/ CZ/ Para/ shirt..etc..blah -blah -blah. Next time say it to their face. I wear a manufacturers shirt because I like the product,...what else would I wear to a match...a freaking Chevy or Ford shirt...?????; long johns? LOL
Those who know me know I have a great sense of humor,..but it gets under my skin seeing mouth off crap....
 
Onagoth said:
Are you sure its the clubs that are making the money?
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yup,for level 2s only $3 goes to IPSC Ont, the rest goes to the club.

as for the worth of the course, as stated before 70 was your membership. so you payed $100 for an instructor to give up their weekend and give you training for 2.5 days, lets call it 10hrs to make the math easy. $10 an hor is pretty cheap, have you ever hired a personal trainer or taken any other shooting course? what would you suggest be added to make it worth it in your mind?
 
Madness said:
yup,for level 2s only $3 goes to IPSC Ont, the rest goes to the club.
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Isn't is possible that the funds are kept by a match director, and the match director simply remits a set fee to the club for the use of said range?

In which case, I'm not surprised match fees get higher and higher every year, as it seems to be quite profitable for an MD to do on the weekend. Almost like a business

I'm not certain of any of this btw....just speculating. I do acknowledge that IPSC costs more to shoot because of the fee per shooter, whereas IDPA is simply an annual fee which is usually recovered after the first match.
 
I don't even recall how much exactly my black badge course was (150-200?), but it was worth every penny.

A full weekend of instruction on trigger control, front sight visualization, reloads, moving etc was fantastic.
Also just a fun weekend going through about 250rounds of ammo and a 5 stage mini match at the end.

The best part was getting during the drills quite a bit of one-on-one coaching from some very experienced shooters (thanks Len, Dave and Tony).

$200 range is perfectly acceptable for these courses (i'm pretty sure mine was actually slightly less).

Have any of you complaining actually taken comparable weekend courses (first aid, high angle rescue, survival, swif####er rescue, avalanche safety ...)? That's what courses cost. Few who teach stuff lie that ever get rich.
 
altaberg said:
I don't even recall how much exactly my black badge course was (150-200?), but it was worth every penny.

A full weekend of instruction on trigger control, front sight visualization, reloads, moving etc was fantastic.
Also just a fun weekend going through about 250rounds of ammo and a 5 stage mini match at the end.

The best part was getting during the drills quite a bit of one-on-one coaching from some very experienced shooters (thanks Len, Dave and Tony).

$200 range is perfectly acceptable for these courses (i'm pretty sure mine was actually slightly less).

Have any of you complaining actually taken comparable weekend courses (first aid, high angle rescue, survival, swif####er rescue, avalanche safety ...)? That's what courses cost. Few who teach stuff lie that ever get rich.
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My issue wasnt with the quality of the course...its excellent for new shooters. I was an experienced shooter who took the course solely to shoot IPSC....that's why I didn't get much out of it.

I wish IPSC recognized other holster certs, but they do not. That's why to me the $100 I paid was mostly just an unnecessary cost. I would of preferred to invest that in ammo or match fees.

Again, its a great course, but not always necessary for someone who is experienced at shooting matches and runs a stage pretty safely.
 
maurice said:
I wear a manufacturers shirt because I like the product,...what else would I wear to a match...a freaking Chevy or Ford shirt...?????; long johns? LOL
QUOTE]

I would suggest Vivid entertainment or astro glide but the Team Shroom boys have already done it. You could wear a VS think pink shirt or Lulu Lemon if you really want to mes with peoples heads
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Onagoth said:
Isn't is possible that the funds are kept by a match director, and the match director simply remits a set fee to the club for the use of said range?

In which case, I'm not surprised match fees get higher and higher every year, as it seems to be quite profitable for an MD to do on the weekend. Almost like a business

I'm not certain of any of this btw....just speculating. I do acknowledge that IPSC costs more to shoot because of the fee per shooter, whereas IDPA is simply an annual fee which is usually recovered after the first match.
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There are matches that do that, MI 3-gun at the LIvingston gun club comes to mind. The MD was taking a cut for himself. You also have to look into how the club is run, down here when we run a match we don't have to pay for range time so all the fund go into the IPSC or IDPA account, sans mission fees and what we spent on props and what not. Some clubs have to give a per-shooter fee to the club fund then get the rest for their disicipline and other like EESA have to give all the funds to the club. you might want to ask areo-plane if what i wrote is ok first before giving it any consderation
In the end thats something that needs to be taken care of on the club level by the club membership.
 
Onagoth said:
My issue wasnt with the quality of the course...its excellent for new shooters. I was an experienced shooter who took the course solely to shoot IPSC....that's why I didn't get much out of it.

I wish IPSC recognized other holster certs, but they do not. That's why to me the $100 I paid was mostly just an unnecessary cost. I would of preferred to invest that in ammo or match fees.

Again, its a great course, but not always necessary for someone who is experienced at shooting matches and runs a stage pretty safely.
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Fair enough and yes I see how that can get boaring, something that we will probably see alot of in the future with people playing in IDPA to start then branching out. Contact your club rep and have them bring it up at the next meeting, I'll try to remember to do it but I may forget, kind of busy working on the design for next years shooting outfit. My bedazzeller should be here in the next day or too
 
Madness said:
There are matches that do that, MI 3-gun at the LIvingston gun club comes to mind. The MD was taking a cut for himself. You also have to look into how the club is run, down here when we run a match we don't have to pay for range time so all the fund go into the IPSC or IDPA account, sans mission fees and what we spent on props and what not. Some clubs have to give a per-shooter fee to the club fund then get the rest for their disicipline and other like EESA have to give all the funds to the club. you might want to ask areo-plane if what i wrote is ok first before giving it any consderation
In the end thats something that needs to be taken care of on the club level by the club membership.
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Fair enough....a lot of people say IPSC clubs simply charge market rate...and since matches are always sold out, fees probably aren't high enough.

However, I never really thought this was an appropriate measure of how a match fee is determined....but nevertheless, its not really my place to tell other MDs and clubs how to price their matches. The only thing I can do is choose not to shoot those matches which I think are too expensive.


This kinda gets to my point about the BB...$100 is kind of a lot considering the idea is too get shooters into the sport. Again, I am not certain if these fees goto the club or the instructor, but when I instruct IDPA courses, I do so for free. My logic is that if people like it, then they will pay to come to the matches. and even at $20 a person, IDPA matches are still profitable.
 
Not every club is lucky enough to have a local BB instuctor so the $100 goes to IPSC ont to cover getting an instuctor down to the club and an admin fee to cover the course materials. If they don't have to go far then there is a surpluse which will be canceld out by a course where the instuctor has to go farther. You're willing to do the IDPA holster course @ EESA for free, but what if you had to go up to Ottawa or down to Windsor just to do the holster cert for a few people?
 
Madness said:
Not every club is lucky enough to have a local BB instuctor so the $100 goes to IPSC ont to cover getting an instuctor down to the club and an admin fee to cover the course materials.
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Understood...

Having said that...IDPA instructors usually travel for free to do courses, or just ask for some money for gas. Ken Soucie and Connie wouldn't accept any money if you ask them to come to a club and do a holster course. And that was like a 4-5 hour round trip

So when people suggest IPSC is more expensive...I can kinda see that in the beginning. However, I've always though that from a gear perspective, etc...it doesn't have to be.
 
But Ken did chrage way more then $170 for a BB when he was doing them at his own range(10 min drive from his house).

The course fee is a road block for some, we did standradize the fee. If we can get enough instuctors so that they don't have to travel maybe the fee will drop.
 
Well...the comparison really isn't really all that fair is it?

Honestly Onagoth, if you pulled someone off the street, gave them the 4 hour IDPA course or gave them the weekend IPSC course, which shooter would you be more comfortable around your wife or child teaching them? I see way more saftey issues with dedicated IDPA shooters than IPSC shooters....but hey, I haven't been shot ......yet.......
 
7.62mm said:
Well...the comparison really isn't really all that fair is it?

Honestly Onagoth, if you pulled someone off the street, gave them the 4 hour IDPA course or gave them the weekend IPSC course, which shooter would you be more comfortable around your wife or child teaching them? I see way more saftey issues with dedicated IDPA shooters than IPSC shooters....but hey, I haven't been shot ......yet.......
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You're right...no one ever gets DQ'd after successfully completing the black badge

FWIW, i wouldn't rely on either course when it comes to trusting my wife or son around someone...I'd want to make my own assessment.

Also, pulling someone off the street is an unfair metric in both cases. Doesn't IPSC suggest you should be shooting for a year before attempting the black badge course? Also, the IDPA courses I do are geared towards RPAL holders who have shooting experience. The course is not designed for someone brand new to guns, just as the BB is not.
 
Onagoth said:
You're right...no one ever gets DQ'd after successfully completing the black badge
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UMMMM......I think you know me well enough to know that I don't give a s**t who you are.....you do something stupid while I am RO'ing (IPSC, IDPA, MULTIGUN ETC..)....you are going home.....is there an issue with someone else in the IPSC world you have a beef with?
 
we do, #### happens. Ive been around shooters who have passed either course and wondered how they managed to stop licking the windows long enough to put a holster on
 
7.62mm said:
UMMMM......I think you know me well enough to know that I don't give a s**t who you are.....you do something stupid while I am RO'ing....you are going home.....is there an issue with someone else in the IPSC world you have a beef with?
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The point I was making is that I wouldn't trust someone more because they have a BB...both holster course are good...but I would never say one is better than the other
 
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