Service Rifle NOOB Wannabe Perspective - My 1st Match

What do people who have knee problems do about kneeling position for Service Rifle? I'm concerned about the condition of my right knee. It's not liking this practice I am trying to do here. I have beat my knees up pretty bad at work and while racing motorcycles.
 
Keebler750 said:
What do people who have knee problems do about kneeling position for Service Rifle? I'm concerned about the condition of my right knee. It's not liking this practice I am trying to do here. I have beat my knees up pretty bad at work and while racing motorcycles.
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I was 49 the last time I won the LFCA/ORA SAC and my knees, back, elbows and ability to run all sucked. That all gets shoved into the background for the few moments it takes to fire a perfect shot, and repeated as needed.

Work into it gradually. Focus on performance and suck up some discomfort; it's unavoidable if you want to shoot with the best.

N_R
 
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Hey, shortandlong, looks like you had something else copied to your clipboard, LOL!!

BTW, I don't care about pain, per se, I need my knees to keep working though.....
 
Ghost - I think HUNGRY can point you in the right direction.

The home base for the OSA is just south of Minden, Ont. and another Service match is coming your way, to Connaught, on the weekend of June 23-24. An Operational Pistol Match is coming up June 9-10. Got Sig? :)

I can't imagine joining another organization, considering the experience and credentials I get to learn from there.
 
Keebler750 said:
What do people who have knee problems do about kneeling position for Service Rifle? I'm concerned about the condition of my right knee. It's not liking this practice I am trying to do here. I have beat my knees up pretty bad at work and while racing motorcycles.
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According to the NSCC rules, you can shoot the kneeling matches in the squatting position as well. This may be a little easier on the knees. With practice, it's almost as stable as kneeling and a lot faster to get into the proper position.

Alternatively, you may want to try a knee brace or knee pad and see if that fixes your problem. A bum knee is also a bit of a problem on the rundowns unfortunately. Good luck, I hope you find a solution and if you do, please share it here since there are a few more guys with the same problem :(
 
I have been investigating this process myself. Since I'm a member with clubs in Quebec and the FQT (OSA version), I am assuming that membership with OSA in order to participate in a match is not necessary. Since am also shooting my non-restricted Norc M14S, an ATT is not necessary. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I am making a stronger effort to shoot in Ontario because of the movement restriction imposed by the SQ. I need a step in a new direction, no pun intended.
 
Ton45:
You are right on all counts. All you gotta pay is the match fee. That's all. What else can I tell you ?

Many of the folks who have shot our matches have been to A'stan and back already. They tell us that our shzt works.... It's all good. :evil:

Cheers,
Barney
 
Hungry said:
Ton45:
You are right on all counts. All you gotta pay is the match fee. That's all. What else can I tell you ?

Many of the folks who have shot our matches have been to A'stan and back already. They tell us that our shzt works.... It's all good. :evil:

Cheers,
Barney
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Barney,

I just printed a copy of the fig11 target. What is it's dimensions in height and width in inches. I'm going to make a scaled down versions to simulate the different ranges for practice.

Hungry here: Full size is 50" long by 17" wide... that's measured with my 8" span hands.

I only own one center fire rifle, and you guessed it, it's the Norc. It's my gun for everything. I have an IER scope on it, the Burris 2.75X scout, on an SA mount. I am assuming that I will be having a great disadvantage with the really long ranges. Am I screwed?

Hey, I just got my ass kicked at 500yards by an AR with a 12.5" barrel and an ACOG. Okay, IER scope... what is that? Pardon my ignorance and enlighten me.... Your .308 will never be disadvantaged right alongside a .223 ?! Are you kidding me ? 7.62mm is where it's at. Hey, I'm old school C1A1 !! :evil:

Are we allowed to use stripper clips to load our rifle?

Of course you are , just give'r and come on out. My struggle is trying to peel all the mirror Kommandos away from the bedroom mirrors while admiring their rigs and bling'ed up M4 knockoffs with Noveske humdingers bolted to LMT A4 uppers with M4 cuts, along with their weapon lights. We are on a mission to get them off the 100 meter firing point. yuk yuk yuk

Is it OK if I only shoot the first day? I am assuming that the second day is a continuation of the event.

Do I have to call ahead to make a squad reservation or do I just show up?

Yes, it's okay to shoot the one day (200m and 300m in Connaught). Sure make some plans with me before the next match coming up in June 23-24 in Connaught. Hey, you might be shooting with Newbie Keebler750. :p Bring on the questions...

I'll probably have more questions later on.

Thanks Barney!
Tön
 
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IER and more questions

Barney,

It's an intermediate eye relief or a scout mount. Here is a pic of my rifle.

Okay, you can't use this combination. You know WHY? 'Cause you are gonna kick our freakin' asses. That's why !! Seriously, you are gonna rock at all distances. Trust me, these matches ain't about the boomstick or the spacegun. These matches are designed to level the playing field back to the fundamentals of: intense training, superior fitness, and classic marksmanship. This ain't no freakin' arms race like some F Class or Precision Rifles or IPSC race guns. The C7A1's kick the stuffing out of any space guns especially at the '550' level. Just ask any of the Queens Medal winners that grace our CGNutz board. God Bless 'em all. They have proven over and over again, it's not the boomstick, but the loose screw behind the buttplate and trigger that counts. :evil: Tell that to all the mirror kommandos on the 100 yard firing line with their LMT, GGG&G, Noveske, TAPCO, Surefire, TAVOR, LaRue, EOTech, Single point Blue Force Gear bling , bling boomstics.


P1020162.jpg


Question again.

What is the team falling plate match about?

Each team of 4 shooters has 10 rds in 2 magazines (of 5 rds each). Each team will have 10 steel plates 1/2" thick on the butts/mound/mantlet. The teams will form a single rank on the 300m mound, adopting the "Prone-ready to run" position with their rifle and 2 mags each with 5 bullets. A the whistle blast, all the teams of 4 shooters sprint to the 200m mound and adopt ANY safe firing pos'n. Usually it will be the prone since it's the most steady after a wind sprint of 100m. Umpires run behind the teams and monitor which team will knock down all 10 of their designated plates. First team to down their 10 plates will win that heat. Winning teams return to the 300m mound to draw more ammo and recover for their next 'heat'. Losing teams retire to the butts and re-set the downed plates. This is an excellent demonstration of fire and movement, or the 4 man team's ability to deliver withering fire in the 'attack'. Most exciting and seldom run in Ontario, except by the OSA staff (TimK, KC and myself).


Are the figures 11 & 12 target used at 300 and 500?

All the matches use the fig 12 in varying formats, except for matches 3, 7, and 11 since they are rapid fire matches that require the 2 x fig 11 spaced 4 ft apart. For the Deliberate (slow fire) matches 1,5, and 9, the fig 11's are on the 4 foot backed frame, employing different scoring rings for the 200m, 300m and 500m respectively. These faces are called "C face" for the 200m, "B face" for the 300m , and "A face" for the 500m deliberate matches. The snap and run down matches will be using a generic fig 12 on a handheld stick.



Do we do the exact same drills done in 200m at 300 and 500?

We have established a pattern for the 3 distances of 200m, 300m and 500m: Deliberate, Snap, Rapid, and Rundown. They are all designed around the same types of fire, but different distances and varying positions are required. That's why these are some of the toughest matches in the country. I have been shooting these matches since I was in Wainwright Battle School in 1977, and I still SUCK. :evil:

What's the dress code?

I've seen jeans (not recommended for cold wet weather), old combats, older BDU's, newer ACU, surplus DCU, Swiss Camo, Marpat woodland, Marpat Desert outfits over the years. I'll recommend some boots 8" tall with ankle support to protect yourself from the groundhog holes at Connaught during the rundowns. The combat / desert / jungle/ Mark3/ Danners/ SWAT boots will also help for your kneelng , sitting, or squatting positions. I've seen various types of rain gear from old OD green Vietnam era ponchos to modern Goretex outfits for more inclement weather. We hardly use helmets, but I bring my US issued PASGT helmet to wear in the butts since I'm the Butts O during my butts shift and I'm a little more exposed so that my commands can be heard across 10 target bays. Yes, we usually get 40 plus shooters at our matches in Ottawa, that's quite a lot more than other PRA's (Provincial Rifle Associations) have turning out for most of their matches.

*NavyShooter Here* Don't forget that you CAN shoot the matches in Hawaiian shirts and nice comfy sandals. (I had a Blackhawk tac-vest to wear around with all my gear in too.)

Now regarding your shooting bag or rucksack that you bring to the firing point with you, have a read here:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135184

Learn from the experts regarding the kinds of kit you might need on the line to achieve personal comfort and later on, success. Remember that dry shooters perform better than wet ones, warm shooters outshoot cold shooters, losing your hearing because you forgot to pack a spare set of foam earplugs ain't funny. Many soldiers often forget some of their kit/tools/earplugs, so I keep spares of everything. That boosts my KARMA among the soldiers, not to mention my cool factor. :p

Anything else I can tell you about this great game and super program organized by OSA ?

Thanks again Barney!!
 
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A few more questions...

Hungry,

Are we allowed to rest our rifle on a bipod or a ruck sack during the deliberate relay?

YOU and your M14 ? You can rest your 5/20 rd magazine on the ground. Don't worry about resting on the bipod or ruck since that is what is practiced in Precision Rifle matches.

In the sticky, 2 sighters are mentioned with scoring. What does that entail? Do we have a sighter per person shooting scoring for us?

Nah, your first 2 shots will be indicated for location and value (points), but they will not be counted towards the scoring phase of the next 10 shots. So far so good?

What happens when we shoot a target twice (double tap)? Do we get penalized or do we score the best of the two?

Don't even go there. Shoot the target once during the deliberates. Some matches will call for TWO shots for a 10 second exposure. Frankly, the best way to let all this stuff sink in is to come to our matches and learn. That's why these 12 matches are challenging even for us 20 year experienced 'expert' class shooters.



How much for the match fee?

$ 50 covers the Sat and Sun. $ 20 for your ration card (we eat in the mess hall). Give furet a PM since he travels from Laval, I believe. He just loves our matches.


Thanks Barney :runaway: !!
 
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I have a problem ...

I have been advised by several people here and at the matches to load 25.0 gr of Varget behind my 68 gr Hornady BTHP's. I am loading to Mag length, 2.260" OAL.

Hungry here: That's why I switched to the Surplus ball powder for $ 14.00 a lb from Higginson's Powders , just outside Ottawa (do a google search). The WC845 (long sold out) and the WC735 are ball powders that are not a temperature tolerant as VARGET, BUT (big but) these powders are a heck of a lot cheaper and more case volume efficient. I only have to load 23.5 gr of the WC735 to get my Hornady 68's up to 3000fps out of my 20" Hbar. Lots of room left in the case when I shake the case while inspecting for 'squib' loads. YMMV...

I am getting such severe compressed loads with this recipe that the bullet is being deformed when I seat it, and the seat depth stays way over the set length. (NO I WON'T TRY AND SHOOT THESE!!!)

Who is getting this to work, and how??????

:(
 
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More questions...

Hungry,

All these questions will eventually be clarified when I make it the match. In the meantime, I want to practice what ever I can.

In 200m rapid, is there 10 individual targets that the shooter has to engage or is there one that we engage 10 times? Your target (lane) will have ONE single fig12 on a handheld stick (your target marker does this, then you take your turn in the butts for their shoot). They will bring it up 10X on the left, center, or right relative to your target bay/lane. Then they will indicate with little orange plastic discs, where your bullets have hit.

Are we permitted to use the sling for shooting?

By all means, I use a sling with light tension on my 16" Hbar mid length carbine. I like the USGI issued tan or OD Green sling that is commonly seen or issued with the M1 Garand / M14 family. Easy to adjust single handed when you are already in position. I hook the U shaped buckle on the rear sling swivel, the running end of the sling is tighten with the lever style locking gate that is found on your OD Green nylon or cotton web sling. Have a look.

Can we pick up our brass?

Yes, I pick up my .223 brass immediately after shooting my 10 scoring shots. You have about 60 - 90 sec window of opportunity to get your brass picked up. You see, all this time, the marker down in the butts is trying to place the (hopefully) 10 orange plastic disc indicators into your fig12 face, then they will expose your handheld fig12 for roughly about a minute. At this time, you look up from picking up your brass and tucking your brass bag into your rucksack, if your target is up with the indicators, have a look through yer spotting scope to get some feedback how you just shot that last match. Sometimes, I will look to see if I did catch the wind change or the wind change caught ME. Then quickly admire your work and prepare to stuff your magazines for the next match coming up. You must stay organized and focused on the next match. No sense getting upset over that last match if you did not do so well. It's behind you, leave it alone and let it go. The next challenge is coming up right away !! Get focused !! Stay centered (literally and metaphorically) !!



Does changing the op guide rod really help with accuracy for the M14. Who is the Lazlo that you mentioned in your DVD that sells them?

Lazlo is Rooster33 who used to crank out some of these beautifully made stainless op rod spring guides. Now, these guides can be found at www.Marstar.com for $ 40. Yes, this guide will immediately shrink your groups from 2" down to about 1" to 1.25". No joking. This is the one immediate upgrade that shows results immediately. Varying spring compression patterns from shot to shot will open up your groups. Done this many times. Not rocket science, this new discovery about a round shaped op rod spring guide. Well documented among the USMC and US Army Marksmanship Training Unit (USAMTU) teams that did this research back throughout the 70's and 80's and 90's until 1996-7 when the USAMTU switched to the Mouse gun with 80gr VLD bullets out of tweaked M16A2's sporting Douglas, Krieger, Hart, Obermeyer custom match barrels.


How tight does my gas nut plug supposed to be. I noticed that it was loose in a few occasions because I just hand tightened it. Do I use a wrench and turn it really tight?

Hand tighten, strong finger tighten. I like to leave a dab of grease on my gas plug threads. Little bit of practice spreading the grease around the threads to prevent seizing of the threads. Use a 3/8" box wrench (dollar store or Cambodian Tire) or the combination tool that can be found at gun shows for a few bucks. They always come up for sale here on the EE Forum or on EGay. :evil: The hand tightening process was a ritual I would perform before every stage of the NRA High Power Course of fire. At each distance of 200yds, 300 yards, and 600 yards, I would use my prep time to scout the wind and mirage, stuff my magazines for the 2 and 8 rounds, and then 'snug' up my gas plug. Not the right time to be losing gas to a leaky gas cylinder, during the rapid fire stage. Ooops... :(

All part of the mental management program that one develops through many years of competition. Hopefully you will generate your own routine as part of YOUR mental management program. :)



A million thanks!

That's why Greentips made me the Service Rifle moderator, he's more than just good looking and a good shooter.... :evil:
 
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cancer said:
Is it possible to shoot decently in service rifle if you're using surplus ammo? I'd be bringing an M14 or a VZ58, and I don't have the equipment or finances to reload.
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All the military teams use government supplied C77 ball ammo (62gr SS109 type bullets) and out shoot most of us civvies using tailored handloads :bangHead:
 
The C77 ball is quite accurate - it is definitely at the high end of general issue military ammo. I won't bother to reload if they are readily available.

If I am you, I will just pick up whatever NATO 7.62 you can find for the M305 and go have fun at the shoot. After a few outtings, you will understand why 5.56 is the way to go for the average people. I have seen a M14 many years ago and the shooter beat the hell out of everyone using swedish surplus-but he was obviously a seasonal operator. IMHO, you can definitely use a 7.62 M305 against 5.56 C7, but the skill level demanded is higher. You have to be a better shooter to go against other good shooters.

I do have doubt about using the VZ - the 7.62X39 goes much slower and will tavel like a rainbow.
 
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